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I don't know anything about Space Marines, but I want to start them...are Black Templars viable at all competitively? How do they compare to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, or Space Wolves?

Are any of them going to be anywhere near as effective come the new SM Codex? Should I just go with Ultramarines?

If Black Templars are still viable next month, can anyone share some tips, tacticas, or ideas for a 1750 point list? I'm lost trying to make a list here, thanks!!!

Black Templars have a lot going for them.

1. All black paint job - only 'crons are quicker to paint!
2. An older-style codex - your termi squads wil still get 2x heavy weapons, you have a proper wargear list, etc.
3. Good quality troop choices (essential for 5th ed)
4. An excuse to take lots of Crusaders. Because you need an excuse...

on the downside, at some point they will get a new-style, bland codex and will have the cr@p nerfed out of them - but hey, what you gonna do?


As far as tactics go, they are great up close, and have the best assault tank in the game to get you there. Take 2 or 3 Crusaders depending on the points value of your game, pick a flank and overwhelm it, then roll up your opponent. Stay together and stay on the move and you won't go far wrong! Good luck, and make sure we see pics

I dont think BT are going to get upgraded anytime soon, so I think they are a safe bet.

Some people around here are already abusing their rules in the new edition.

Surely you don't mean the "Go to Ground" and then "Fall Forward"!???!

No, not that abusive thankfully.

Though I would find it amusing if they did. It would serve GW right.

Leaving whining about change aside, the Black Templars have a Vow that gives the whole army preferred enemy. That's an exquisite benefit in 5th.

Good luck killing a Land Raider Crusader with Blessed Hull. Hope you brought S10 weapons!

yeah, my buddy runs three LRCs with 15 man squads inside each, plus two dropping dreads, it was nasty in 4th, and in 5th will rock peoples socks.

do you gusy think the infnatry hoarde could be tough now with run and prefered enemy? it sounds viable especially with their ability to fall forwrd. you could get a huge amount of infantry across the board in a two turns.

Considering you can have 80 models for fairly cheap, they're more berzerk then berzerkers!

If I would start an SM army these days, I would take Black Templars. Its a pretty good assault oriented army with decent fire support. And it can get more Land Raiders than normal SM armies.

Perferred Enemy is huge. Try facing down three Termie assault squads with re-rolling lc/t-hammers. And if they get the 3++ storm shield save rumored to be coming in the new codex? fuggedaboutit.

Surely Black Templars will use the storm shield rules from thier own codex, not codex space marines.

What gives Black Templars permission to take more Land Raiders?

What about Blood Angels? They seem like they'd be a better choice, more options, flexibility, balance, and overall more reliable no?

Their troop units can bring LRC as transports.

Blood angels also suffer from the recent marine changes ie no 2 heavies in terminator squad, no proper wargear list etc.

BT list is simply better as a assault marine list.

whitedragon wrote:Considering you can have 80 models for fairly cheap, they're more berzerk then berzerkers!

Funny you should mention this, My current 40k project is a Black Templar army using Chaos models.

I am using Berzerkers for initiates, converted WHFB Chaos Warriors for neophytes, Chaos dreadnoughts for well ...dreadnoughts, skulltaker for a chapter master in terminator armor, and the WHFB Khorne champion standing on the huge pile of skulls for the emporer's champion.

I've only gotten a handful of games with it so far and it is only about half painted but from what I can tell 70+ running guys with preferred enemy and running dreads with preferred enemy is "some good".

What's really sad is that the black templars really do make better berzerkers than the chaos book does.

I don't see how they can keep BT and such on their own codex when SM codex gets released. If Marines get any type of revamp like Orks did, any variants or similar/sub lists would be totally broke. Any clue if the new SM codex is going to include all the chapter info for the sub chapters?

I fully expect Codex SM would have 'mini' rules or force-org templates until new individual codexes come out. It is going to be too much of a mess to try to reconcile gear and characters and such of the old chapter codexes with the new SM codex.

Well I think BT can still Ass-can spam.

But with the rending nerf, do you want to?

Surely you don't mean the "Go to Ground" and then "Fall Forward"!???!

It's a shame that its illegal because you cant zeal if your pinned

Aristotle wrote:

Surely you don't mean the "Go to Ground" and then "Fall Forward"!???!

It's a shame that its illegal because you cant zeal if your pinned

I'm assuming you're thinking that "Going to Ground" makes you pinned. That's not true. Going to ground says that the unit may do nothing until the end of it's next turn, that's it. No mention of "Pinning".

There's actually nothing in the 5th Edition Rulebook that I could find that mentions anything about being pinned. There is a listing for "Pinning" as a weapon type which forces you to take a "Pinning Test". If a unit fails said test, "it is immediately forced to go to ground."

Lonely_Penguin wrote:I don't know anything about Space Marines, but I want to start them...are Black Templars viable at all competitively? How do they compare to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, or Space Wolves?

Are any of them going to be anywhere near as effective come the new SM Codex? Should I just go with Ultramarines?

If Black Templars are still viable next month, can anyone share some tips, tacticas, or ideas for a 1750 point list? I'm lost trying to make a list here, thanks!!!

I'd be happy to. Also, we will be, the SM dex will not effect us much at all. See the B&C for reasons why. Also, if you want real BT help, I would check the B&C BT forum. Fall Forward? Really guys? Or just PM me questions, I can answer them.

Hellfury wrote:I dont think BT are going to get upgraded anytime soon, so I think they are a safe bet.

Some people around here are already abusing their rules in the new edition.

Yea, people are. Lots of stuff to abuse now.

whitedragon wrote:Surely you don't mean the "Go to Ground" and then "Fall Forward"!???!

Some folks at the B&C already are using Zeal+Going to Ground, and there is an argument that Zeal gets you out of going to ground. Which is basically a free cover save.

Danny Internets wrote:Good luck killing a Land Raider Crusader with Blessed Hull. Hope you brought S10 weapons!

Indeed, all of my LRC lists have Blessed Hull simply to spite Eldar players(They are a major problem army, its the easiest way to deal with them).

Reecius wrote:yeah, my buddy runs three LRCs with 15 man squads inside each, plus two dropping dreads, it was nasty in 4th, and in 5th will rock peoples socks.

do you gusy think the infnatry hoarde could be tough now with run and prefered enemy? it sounds viable especially with their ability to fall forwrd. you could get a huge amount of infantry across the board in a two turns.

It was vaible before, it is broken now. Minimum of 20" movement in two turns. Max of 33". Rather mobile.

Mekboy wrote:Surely Black Templars will use the storm shield rules from thier own codex, not codex space marines.

Of course, unless FAQed in, there is nothing from SM that BT will actually have/get.

Lonely_Penguin wrote:What about Blood Angels? They seem like they'd be a better choice, more options, flexibility, balance, and overall more reliable no?

Not really. BT are faster, can take more LRC's, have better characters, and are much better in CC. Blood Angles are more balanced/less CC oriented, it depends on what you want.

nkelsch wrote:I don't see how they can keep BT and such on their own codex when SM codex gets released. If Marines get any type of revamp like Orks did, any variants or similar/sub lists would be totally broke. Any clue if the new SM codex is going to include all the chapter info for the sub chapters?

I fully expect Codex SM would have 'mini' rules or force-org templates until new individual codexes come out. It is going to be too much of a mess to try to reconcile gear and characters and such of the old chapter codexes with the new SM codex.

It won't. They never have done that, they won't now. Daemon Hunters still have Heavy 3 Assault Cannons(No rending either). We may get a few wargear changes, maybe upgraded unit listings(Say, LRC), but nothing more, and even that is unlikely.

Aristotle wrote:

Surely you don't mean the "Go to Ground" and then "Fall Forward"!???!

It's a shame that its illegal because you cant zeal if your pinned

Go To Ground isn't pinning. Already said, but still.

kadun wrote:There's actually nothing in the 5th Edition Rulebook that I could find that mentions anything about being pinned. There is a listing for "Pinning" as a weapon type which forces you to take a "Pinning Test". If a unit fails said test, "it is immediately forced to go to ground."

I did not relize that. I think you for pointing that out, I need to look into that. Thank you for that.

BT are probably the best SM dex currently out. SM may change that, but BT will still be Tier 1(Better then Tier 2-3 from 4th ed), and the best CC marines, period(Thank god for the New, Weaker, CSM. Noise Marines/Plauge Marines have nothing on my squads).

BT is an excellent army for 5th.

If you want a good list, I've posted several or I'll be glad to help you make one if you give me some ideas on what you want.

There was a rumor floating about that a new FAQ would be released regarding the DA/BA/BT in relation to the new Space Marine Codex. IIRC, it had to do with some of the changes to Cyclone Missile Launchers, Storm Shields, Vehicle Capacity and some other odds and ends (multiple LRC's with the new Machine Spirit).

BT's look to be a very,very viable Marine army.

And yes, locals picked up very quickly the 'go to ground' and Righteous Zeal. Combined with Drop Pods and Preferred Enemy, it's one combo that seems to work quite well.

If BT's get FAQ, they will be stupid powerful. They already are pretty good right now.

Since lysanderwing is dead, I am thinking about going back and forth between BT and DW.

DW so I can use termies as troops every once in awhile. BT because termies are still dead nuts hard there.

I'm thinking of running a termie heavy BT army with my old Lysanderwing. I mean, they even have the same geneseed!

The biggest advantage BT have right now is the Retinue rule, access to LRC's as troop transports, and Preferred Enemy. Also being able to attach an the EC to a Drop Pod squad solves the 4th edition dilema that the BT faced. Now they can finally all pod if you want them to.

Capt K

I am looking back into my BT and was thinking of running Drop pods. Now in the past drop pods couldnt scatter into enemies etc...due to the pod rules. Has that suddenly changed in the new rules set? I have seen several people make mention of it and I think it would suck for GW to FINALLY do the friggen model then nerf them into uselessness!!!!