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Hey there, I got to spend some quality time with a notepad, pencil, calculator, and a lot of caffeine last night. I targeted the guard codex and was determined to make a list with serious alpha strike offensive potential. I spent a lot of time thinking about the army concept as a whole, rather than dropping in my favorite units and filling the gaps. I'll talk more about how I got to this step and some concepts behind it after i show it to you....

junior officer 4x meltas 80
3x mortars 80
3x mortars 80
3x heavy bolters 80
3x heavy bolters 80

junior officer 4x meltas 80
infantry squad flamer heavy bolter 76
infantry squad flamer heavy bolter 76
infantry squad flamer heavy bolter 76

junior officer 4x meltas 80
infantry squad flamer heavy bolter 76
infantry squad flamer heavy bolter 76

20x conscripts 80

20x conscripts 80

junior officer 4x meltas 80
3x mortars 80
3x mortars 80
3x mortars 80

junior officer 4x meltas 80
3x mortars 80
3x mortars 80
3x mortars 80


I bet this makes you think of a lot of things. There are probably plenty of guys who are looking at it and thinking that one of their lists could sweep it away in a couple turns with no problem. Or that think there are some gaps in its ability to handle some element of their list. Or that its difficult to deploy...

While this list is a concept list, and by no means tuned for any kind of specific play environment, it has a LOT of answers. I started the concept stage by searching for the unit with the best wound to point ratio. I didn't care what unit, all stones were overturned. While it was difficult to mathhammer the blast marker generating mortars, I made some approximations that I was comfortable with, and settled on a straight up tie between mortars and heavy bolters. When facing large model count armies, the damage potential of the mortar jumped significantly, and so was chosen as the basis of the list.

The next concept that came to me was, mortars are 80 points, I wonder if i can create a max cap size of a unit to 80 points, I whipped out the calculator and discovered that if I were to do that, I could purchase 22 units in a 1750 list... 22 units, each with a higher than average yield of wounds versus T4.

The list itself averages about 60 wounds caused against T4 pre-save. Lots of latitude has to be taken here, range, transports, LOS (not for mortars)... but given 1 million games against an even cross section, this seems to be a pretty comfortable number, that number goes up a lot against orks thanks to the mortars. It's not really worth talking about what kind of save you'll be up against, thats why I used pre-save numbers there.

Cover saves... Well, another concept that I think is great, and something others here at dakka work with, is terrain-free cover. I'm of the mind that, most good 40k players who have played a dozen or so games have now learned which units really want cover, and these players are already experts at getting those units cover. It isn't hard, and it is very powerful. So the concept here is to completley ignore cover. Not through templates, but just by allowing them cover anyway. Nids will have cover, orks will have cover, marines will have 3+ armor and potentially cover as well. Fine, that makes defedning against assaults easier for me. I will string units out and stack them up. Mortars won't need LOS, they can go in the back. Conscripts can go in the front, spread wide, infantry squads behind them, ready to flame broke-open assaults.

For the mortars, the presence of a screening unit has no effect, cover saves versus barrage are resolved from the point of impact, not tha I'd expect units to not have area terrain to stand in, but hiding behind a vehicle/unit or non-area terrain is not going to save the 5+ or 6+ armor crowd.

Kill Points... Yes, guard are going to lose kill points games anyway, I'm looking to table you. Mortars are almost impossible to hide from, dropping meltas as well. I don't believe that this list is any MORE disadvantaged in a KP game than any standard 16+ KP guard army.

Leadership. This is alpha strike. I'm not looking to spend points that don't output wounds. These units are built with a cap at 80 points, taking advantage of everyones attempt at playing a modest KP list. Go ahead and shoot at my units with your robust KP friendly unit, my infantry squads and a couple of melta units will have LD8. The rest can run if they want... 44% of the time roughly. I'm ok with that.

The next step for me is to check the feedback i get here, play some proxy games, and make the 'defensive' modifications I need to turn this into something I feel more comfortable with... But if it just doesn't look scary to you, lemme show you the guns one more time.

24 mortars
11 heavy bolters
20 melta-guns
5 flamers
115 lasguns

175 models, 22 units

thanks for reading and replying

Could you find a better use for the 160 points than the two squads of conscripts? 20 guys is a lot, and the opponent should have more pressing targets, but it seems like you could do more - even just another two mortar or heavy bolter line squads might be useful.

tzeentchling wrote:Could you find a better use for the 160 points than the two squads of conscripts? 20 guys is a lot, and the opponent should have more pressing targets, but it seems like you could do more - even just another two mortar or heavy bolter line squads might be useful.

Very good question. I'm going to have to deploy this army on a couple different table before I can tell you for sure. They are there to give my infantry squads cover, the infantry squads give my mortars cover if not blocked LOS. If I have to get cover with area terrain on my infantry squads then that has an immediate impact on my safe placement of the mortars. When my deployment gets restricted like that, my opponent can hide from my mortars through range if he deploys second, and if he deploys first, he can see that my list will be anchored around area terrain. He then has an advantage in deployment with that knowledge.

However, dropping those conscripts for infantry squads with flamers and heavy bolters isn't crazy. I'm operating under the assumption that I'll need the coverage from the higher model count. But just using smaller infantry squads as my front line is a viable option.

I love the leadership 5 of the conscripts though. Even the most busted, failed charge will break them open, and then I'll have a field day with the "winners"

I like the list, I'm also looking at how to make Guard work in 5th. Came to similar conclusions about Heavy Bolter, Flamer, Meltagun, and Mortar.

The one thing I disagree with, however, is Leadership. A single foot Canoness with Book (I know no longer pure Guard) gives you the option of having 20 wound Tarpits that do not run. It also gives them leadership 10 versus shooting Morale Checks which will keep them in place. In addition, I'd add Flamers to the conscript squads.

I've also thought about going completely without Lascannons, the ony threat is the Monolith, but I guess you suck that one up and "try" for phase out.

kadun wrote:I like the list, I'm also looking at how to make Guard work in 5th. Came to similar conclusions about Heavy Bolter, Flamer, Meltagun, and Mortar.

The one thing I disagree with, however, is Leadership. A single foot Canoness with Book (I know no longer pure Guard) gives you the option of having 20 wound Tarpits that do not run. It also gives them leadership 10 versus shooting Morale Checks which will keep them in place. In addition, I'd add Flamers to the conscript squads.

I've also thought about going completely without Lascannons, the ony threat is the Monolith, but I guess you suck that one up and "try" for phase out.

The monolith and to a certain extent the wave serpent scare me a little. But you go for phase out for one, and you just trade an 80 point unit for the contents of the wave serpent in the other (if you don't kill it with a natural non-melta roll).

I'm pretty sure you'll end up right on the leadership point. I don't like to test lists that way though. For my first games with a new list, if I know I have pushed the offensive potential of my list to the maximum, then when I lose a games, I'm able to look at the results with a better idea of how to change it. If you are max offense and you lose, you either cannot win against that matchup under any circumstances, or... you need to figure out how you lost.. did you lose all of your scoring units? Could you not maneuver scoring units to objectives? This makes the tweaking easier.

I'm betting i won't like the majority leadership 7 much either in shooting wars, and the optional tarpit is great for the 2 or 3 attack dreadnought/carnifex/wraithlord. But I'll need to get burned by it a few times before i confidently dial back on the killiness here.

thanks!

I've no idea how that will stand up in playtesting, but I very much like the purity of your approach Shep; a simple goal of alpha strike.

With that in mind, since you were searching units with the best wound to point ratio versus T4, even ignoring the usual arguments about survivability and mobility, doesn't the Leman Russ raise its hand as a potential qualifier against its points cost of 2 of your infantry squads with Flamer/HB?

I'm not a tread-head yet (although 5E is moving me that way), but without touching on squad fragility, I'm unconvinced that 6 mortars (160pts) with their full 2xD scatter have the damage output of a LRBC.

What do you think?

Matt-ShadowLord wrote:
With that in mind, since you were searching units with the best wound to point ratio versus T4, even ignoring the usual arguments about survivability and mobility, doesn't the Leman Russ raise its hand as a potential qualifier against its points cost of 2 of your infantry squads with Flamer/HB?

I'm not a tread-head yet (although 5E is moving me that way), but without touching on squad fragility, I'm unconvinced that 6 mortars (160pts) with their full 2xD scatter have the damage output of a LRBC.

What do you think?

I was actually thoroughly impressed with the leman russ output. I wasn't expecting it to be able to compete with 6 mortars (or 6 heavy bolters). It comes damn close...A BS3 heavy bolter puts a wound on T4 every time it shoots, so 6 of them is 6 wounds. The leman russ needs to average 7 models under the blast to get that. I recall just missing that target number in my games, but its not far off. Couple that with armor 14 and 72" range (ap3 doesn't hurt either) and its definitely a fine vehicle. My admittedly suspect calculations did prove it to be just shy of the 'pure' offense slot. The mortar has a few check marks in its column. Primarily, being able to shoot at things out of LOS and being able to essentially ignore all non-area terrain cover.

I can't compare it to the troop selections, because they are fulfilling the cover concept/scoring units/compulsory slots.

the mortars that my opponent has LOS to will lose offensive output as they are shot at, but I also suspect the coming land raider spam will encourage players to include more DSing melta units, more bright lance wave serpents (with fire dragons?), and other reliable answers to armor 14.

who knows how many mortars or conscripts will survive the post-testing chopping block... but its awesome to see how many guardsmen out there are thinking along these same lines... best defense being a good offense

thanks for replying!

I love the concept!

I definately would not put any tanks in this list (even if the LRBT offensive output turned out to be better than equivalent infantry), for the simple reason that you've just made pointless every AT weapon your opponent has payed points for.

On the other hand, however, I worry about your own anti-tank. 20 meltas is formidable, but how are you getting them into position to do any damage? If you drop them you lose the leadership bubble, If you don't, they'll struggle to get close.

How about leaving some of your command in the lines with flamers (for counter-assault) while the rest drop with meltas and bulk up your anti-tank with dropping, melta-armed vets?

So are the mortar squads going to hide and take advantage of indirect fire or will you try swamp your opponent with targets?

So many mortars...

Teh_K42 wrote:So are the mortar squads going to hide and take advantage of indirect fire or will you try swamp your opponent with targets?

So many mortars...

The mortars have the option of hiding, but I believe the best use would simply to have them behind your other squads. They get 4+ cover saves, but because of the barrage rules, their targets would not. In addition, because they would have LOS to their targets, scatter is 2D6-BS.

There is one giant flaw in the mortar logic. The mortar is only str 4. That means that in order to get at least one wound you need to be touching at least two models. In addition it is only ap5 so anything barring an ork or a guardsman will get a general armor save. To say that the mortar is on par with the heavy bolter is a mistake. Each heavy bolter on average does one wound to t4. The mortar is only going to strike a target a little more than 1/3 of the time. I am sorry 2d6 -3 is still a long way to scatter with the small blast marker. If you say you catch 4 guys with each hit (unlikely but doable) you will still be wounding only about 2/3 of the time. I am sorry, that is just not worth it for an indirect bolter. I can see some increased utility with 5th edition, but just do not have that kind of faith in the morter

I like it (mortars really are very dangerous, despite the people who insist they aren't).

I think you'd do well with some lascannon support.

It is far too easy to deal with dropping meltaguns from guard.

I also think on the conscripts, you only need 1 squad, and that squad should have grenade launchers (so they do something).

I think 4 lascannons is enough (even though they don't do a whole lot, I think it's best to have them than not have them).

Have you thought about bringing a Canoness with LD10 to bubble your army? She's 50 points. 40 for a Palatine with LD9.

I agree with Stelek. I like the list in principle but I also kind of think you need at least something that is capable of dealing with monstrous creatures and vehicles.

I also like that this list might give me something fun to do with all of the mortar bits I have laying around from my other IG heavy weapon teams.

I definitely think mortars beat heavy bolters when spamming for the following reasons.

1. They have 12" more range.
2. They are indirect.

This means you can hit any troop that can threaten you from turn one, with all (or very nearly all) your firepower given proper deployment. You can pick a squad and hit it with 22 mortars turn one. If you had heavy bolters instead. Many would probably be out of LOS, or granting cover saves (if that mattered against the army you happened to be playing.

Indirect bolter, dont care what your fancy maths say sonny boy, thats all it is, an indirect bolter. Mortars are only danagerous because if you put 20+ in your army, you will only get to play two turns before you run out of time and your opponent then punches you in the face and jams a morter base up your pee hole for taking so long.

foil7102 wrote:Indirect bolter, dont care what your fancy maths say sonny boy, thats all it is, an indirect bolter. Mortars are only danagerous because if you put 20+ in your army, you will only get to play two turns before you run out of time and your opponent then punches you in the face and jams a morter base up your pee hole for taking so long.

A compelling argument.. no really...

In most cases against non-orks, a mortar that rolls a "hit' will touch two models. I divided the misses up, some scatters are low, or lucky, and also get 2 or 3. Some scatters are high, or unlucky, and get 1 or none. For most common infantry formations, a hit on the second or third shot in a barrage will be 2 models, and with the exception of a single rank of models, misses (off of hits) will almost always get one. Against orks... well even crazy scatters are hitting multiple orks, and all battery misses are collecting two or three more hits. My calculations indicate that an average result of 3 mortars is 6 hits. Way more than that against orks, way less than that against a guy who took the time to spread his army meticulously. 6 strength 4 hits = 3 wounds versus T4. Same as heavy bolter. With 12" more range, the ability to shoot with no LOS, and the ability to ignore non-area terrain cover. I have more confidence in my calculation than in a persons estimation of a weapon he doesn't particularly like.

@ Stelek. Its very very likely that the one conscript unit turns into a canoness. The one thing I'm really concerned about at this stage is that a quick swipe at conscripts could get just enough casualties to start shooting at uncovered infantry squads on turn 2. Thats a turn earlier than i'd like. Plus the option to tarpit is too good not to take. But I gotta play a weekends worth of games with this first, just because it'll be a laugh. A good point on the lascannons. That is the kinda tweak I will make after I play that game against 6 wave serpents, or some other drop melta unfriendly list.

@ Chimera. Leadership is another thing I wager I will compromise on. Just gotta see what types of units are taken out, and if they get wiped out to a man or if I am sometimes left with something to actually take a test with. I am a huge fan of the junior officer, flag, 3x flamer unit.. its still less than 80 points and would only cost me 4 of the 20 meltas.

thanks guys for the feedback! I'll let you know how it goes once I've stopped furiously painting models for Vegas.

Your math is way off dude, re-read the rules on how barrage weapons fire in battery. If the first shot is a miss by more than three inches, you may as well throw the secound two shots away. Your assumptions are generous at best. 6 hits on average for every battery fired? Even against orks, good luck with that. You picked that number because it was the lowest number you could pick and have your math even come close to working out. I would suggest that you proxy this army out before buying and building. I am confident you will find yourself underwhelmed.

foil7102 wrote:Your math is way off dude, re-read the rules on how barrage weapons fire in battery.

No. I know how it works.

foil7102 wrote: If the first shot is a miss by more than three inches, you may as well throw the secound two shots away.

Really? Have you played against an ork army? If the first shot was over a group of three models that were coherent, and it scattered three inches, then any successive shot in the battery that scored a hit would fold right back on to models in that grouping. Also, misses in the battery that happened to scatter in the direction of the original placement will generate hits.

foil7102 wrote:Your assumptions are generous at best. 6 hits on average for every battery fired? Even against orks, good luck with that.

Yes, 6 hits on average with every battery fired. If it underperforms slightly, it still outshines the mere 36" and cover save granting, LOS requiring heavy bolters. Against orks? placing the first blast of the battery in a location central to the brick of 30 orks guarantees hits, you can roll 12 on scatter, the 9 inches it moves will still have models under it. Am I guessing this? No, been there, done it, have the screenshot...

foil7102 wrote:You picked that number because it was the lowest number you could pick and have your math even come close to working out. I would suggest that you proxy this army out before buying and building. I am confident you will find yourself underwhelmed.

I didn't "pick" that number, that number was generated based on my experience playing with guard and mortars, and playing a great many games against orks.

As was said at the top, this is a 'concept' list. It is constructed in an effort to find maximum damage output before making a 'real' list. Of course im going to proxy it first, even if it works It isn't likely that I'm going to run out and buy the mortars I need just months before a new codex will come out and potentially change anything.

While I do appreciate the feedback and understandable skepticism, I'm getting more of a knee-jerk hatred of mortars vibe from you. Perhaps a bad experience or two has soured your outlook on the weapon? These bad experiences likely occurred in 4th edition. Not only have the rules dramatically changed, but the metagame has also changed. Were not going to end up agreeing with each other over a message board discussion, so I'll just promise to post data from playtest games. I'm sure with that information we'll be able to agree one way or another.

Looks interesting - a couple of things worth considering is that mortars are also pinning, right? Not worth much with all the fearless out there these days, but still, you might get lucky with it. Also, mortars have a minimum range which might kind of suck vs. really fast armies.

No problem Shep, I will look foward to reading your posts. I tend to see more power armor in my neck of the woods, even with the current swing. I do agree with you, that against large mob orks, IG, or dark eldar, mortars are not horrible to pack. But against Eldar, Chaos, and marines..... Not quite as much punch against them. My point about the more than three inch scatter is that if the small template scatters 4 inches, and then you get a Hit, it will still be to far away to walk the blasts into your target, unless you get two favorable ones in a row. This is of course assuming that you do not have line of sight on your target and do not get to subtract the 3 for the BS.

Hmmm I think two people should re-read the blast rules again.

Why conscripts at all when you could have two more infantry squads to do the same thing? The conscripts are going to run no matter what with the new morale modifiers. Especially if you are aiming for max fire power.