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Demon Prince, Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission
Demon Prince, Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission
Summoned Greater Demon
4 Terminators, Champion, Icon of Chaos Glory, 4 Combi-weapons, 2 Power Fists
4 Terminators, Champion, Icon of Chaos Glory, 4 Combi-weapons, 2 Power Fists
10 Chaos Marines, Champion, Power Fist, 2 Melta Guns, Icon of Chaos Glory, Rhino
10 Chaos Marines, Champion, Power Fist, 2 Melta Guns, Icon of Chaos Glory, Rhino
16 Raptors, Champion, Power Fist, 2 Melta Guns, Icon of Khorne
16 Raptors, Champion, Power Fist, 2 Melta Guns, Icon of Khorne
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators

I'm pretty sure that I should drop the Greater Demon and the champions in the Terminator squads(only there in case the demon should come through them), but I'm not sure what to take in its place. Additionally, the guy does soak up a lot of damage and is good for popping out and contesting an objective.

Also, I've considered replacing 4 of the oblits with 2 Defiliers. With 2 close combat arms and fleet they can more around a lot when the battle cannon doesn't have anything better to shoot at.

Cogito

You do not have nearly enough Termies. Take 10-15 or none at all.
CSM should be replaced with Berzerkers. They're much, much better in CC.
Lash isn't as useful for CC armies. "But I can pull them into charge range!" you may say, but Warptime on Int. 6 DPs is evil.
Raptors look OK.
Obliterators look out-of-place in a CC army. If you want to be fluffy with CC, take Defilers instead. They only cost as much as two Oblits. If you use Defilers, take three CC arms and leave the flamer alone.

maybe a few lesser demons, they love close combat and are great at it, as long they they get close enought alive

To be fair, you can't really bring Demon Princes to 2500 points.

They'll just get shot to pieces.

Same with those termies.

This is what I'd do, gives you a good firebase and troops that will stick around unless assaulted by dedicated close combat troops.

The Raptors should deploy 12", move 12", run D6", move 12", and assault 6". They have a huge amount of attacks.

So, I'd rework it as below:

2500 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster

1 Chaos Sorceror @ 150 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Force Weapon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Lash of Submission; Personal Icon; Wings; Mark of Slaanesh

1 Chaos Sorceror @ 155 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Force Weapon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Lash of Submission; Personal Icon; Wings; Mark of Slaanesh

5 Plague Marines @ 135 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Blight Grenades; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Feel No Pain; Mark of Nurgle

5 Plague Marines @ 135 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Blight Grenades; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Feel No Pain; Mark of Nurgle

5 Plague Marines @ 135 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Blight Grenades; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Feel No Pain; Mark of Nurgle

5 Plague Marines @ 135 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Blight Grenades; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Feel No Pain; Mark of Nurgle

19 Raptors @ 490 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Meltagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Icon of Khorne; Mark of Khorne
1 Aspiring Champion @ [60] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Mark of Khorne

19 Raptors @ 490 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Meltagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Icon of Khorne
1 Aspiring Champion @ [60] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

3 Obliterators @ 225 Pts
Power Fist; Obliterator Weapons; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful

3 Obliterators @ 225 Pts
Power Fist; Obliterator Weapons; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful

3 Obliterators @ 225 Pts
Power Fist; Obliterator Weapons; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful

Total Roster Cost: 2500

OH MY GOD! Stelek said no to Daemon Princes! IT'S A SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE!

Anyway, I do agree with Stelek's list more. Large units of Raptors are better than several small ones, as it seems more horde armies are being fielded these days.

I'm tempted to find points for a icon in 2 of those plague marine units. The prospect of bringing the oblits in on target seems very helpful(what I did with the terminators and oblits in the original build).

I'm assuming the Sorceror are hanging out with the raptors?

The rhinos were used almost entirely as walls/moving terrain, either shielding units from long range high strength shots, or protecting the raptors from rapid fire after an assault.

3 Oblits per unit? Any thoughts on defiliers given the ability to bunch units with the lash(or do you use it only for pulling towards combat and those you don't want to engage(ctan) away from you?

Cogito

The sorcerors are there to bully the enemy into fighting khorne equipped raptors on turn 2. There is literally almost no way to avoid it, and you DO want to avoid it. lol

Oblits + plasma > defilers with cannons o'crap, to be honest.

Cheese Elemental wrote:OH MY GOD! Stelek said no to Daemon Princes! IT'S A SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE!

Torrent of fire hurts demon princes.

It's not THAT bad in 1750, but 2500 really opens the playing field for massive amounts of high strength long range fire and that makes DP's go away.

Stelek wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:OH MY GOD! Stelek said no to Daemon Princes! IT'S A SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE!

Torrent of fire hurts demon princes.

It's not THAT bad in 1750, but 2500 really opens the playing field for massive amounts of high strength long range fire and that makes DP's go away.

Gotta agree on that one. I've played 2 games with those two DPs at 2250 and they got owned by massed ultramarine light/medium arms. Roll enough dice and they just die.

Cogito

Any advice on standing there for a turn after you wipe a unit off the table and getting rapid fired? 20 Raptors should cover enough ground to engage more than 1 unit at the same time. I just worry about the same problem that all elite assault units are running into right now.

Seem to be alot of chaos lists lately. Might have to get my bf to try something like this and see how it works. Looks really mean.

Lash might help with getting rapid fired push units you can't engage back out of rapid fire range.

Cogito wrote:Any advice on standing there for a turn after you wipe a unit off the table and getting rapid fired? 20 Raptors should cover enough ground to engage more than 1 unit at the same time. I just worry about the same problem that all elite assault units are running into right now.

Actually what you want to do is lash another unit close to the one you are going to assault.

Then pile in and see what happens.

Usually, it's you win. lol

Oh and Ork hordes hate khorne raptors. With lash sorcerors supporting them, they really hate them. lol

Thoughts on dropping 2 of the oblits for 4 rhinos and 4 icons?

Cogito

heh, forget about the icons, forgot plague marines are fearless, but the moving walls come very much in handy.

Cogito

Rhinos are not needed. Your PM are anvil units, not hammer units.

Moving walls are pointless. You can't reliably hide 40 raptors behind rhinos.

I've always thought after 1500 points the sorcerer was better than the lash prince in 5th because the lash is so powerful in end game. You can simply move people off objectives if you go second. Princes are simply less likely to be around.

That said, I really strongly feel that 20 plague marines is really not enough scoring models on the board. Also, what about some thing like a land raider?

Another point, while probably not a popular one but for the same points in raptors you could have 38 lesser daemons. Which is more attack, twice as many wounds, can charge the turn they come in, and do more damage against marines, orks etc. and are scoring.

Ultimately, I would imagine with chaos you want as many scoring units running around as possible.

Let's just say my 'ard boyz list would massacre this list.

Pete

I really dig the Raptors with the Icon of Khorne. A friend of mine has been experimenting with them and between their maneuverability, huge number of attacks plus ability to get melta guns into position has been quite nice.

Raptors with MoK can be really nasty. At the start of the game, the opponent will be busy to take on the Raptors, not really able to take on the PMs. So it could work, but 4 minimal scoring units is not much.

I dont really see the obliterators doing much in that list. You should use the raptors and csm to take care of tanks. Combine the termies into one squad- they are not gonna do much on their own - 12 power weapons on the charge isnt gonna hurt orks, and there are a lot of ork lists these days.

You might want to consider using your CSM to summon mass demons: imagine this:
Turn 1 - rhinos move flat out towards target , fire up smoke launchers.
Raptors speed towards shooty enemy units

Enemy Turn 1 - shoot at raptors, kill about 10

Turn 2 - Rhino move 12', turn sideways, disembark CSM from side hatch so that rhino acts as a wall of steel. If you happen to get reserves roll for demons, you summon with raptors, and they engage the shooty enemy infantry

Enemy Turn 2 - Tanks killed by raptors, devastators/heavy weapon squads locked up by demons.
Not very productive turn, except possibly killing rhinos.

Turn 3 - summon demons with csm, if rhinos have been destroyed, thats good, if they havnt, move them out of the way, and unleash 20 rapid fire bolter shots and a swarm of demons on the enemy.

You win.

I've got some list ideas that include lots of daemons, too - if anything, for annoyance factor. I mean who wants to shoot a daemon when there's raptors or terminators coming at you? Oh yeah, they're holding that objective.....

That and while sure they may "suck", they get as many attacks and hit as hard as CSM in hand to hand. They're not as survivable, but if you're tossing them into an already ongoing assault they can add a lot to it.

I don't know if I'd base an army around them, though.

Daemons are useful for two things, holding objectives and assaulting the turn they get summoned.

Lets, break that down.

Plague marines hold objectives better. Plain and simple. Much harder to kill and they have guns so if you sit 7 inches away from me and rapid fire at me I don't have to walk away from the objective in order to hurt you back.

As for assaulting the turn they come in, that's a pretty big 'if' there. You are assuming that they are going to come in the turn you want and assuming that they are going to come in on target or close enough to the target to get the charge off.

The only way to make that work reliably is to take lots of units and lots of icons that you can move into position. Granted I've done this in the past with small units of combi-armed terminators, it is not reliable and more often than not the terminators don't last much past the turn the drop in.

I'd rather have things that are on the table than maybe coming on next turn. The only part I'd consider deep striking would be a unit of oblits if my opponent had something armor 14 that I was going to have trouble getting to. Drop in and melta gun it.

Cogito

Actually, you couldnt really argue that plague marines are more survivable that demons, because you can get 2 for every plague marine. Two 5+ invulnerabel saves are better than one regular 3+, and you get two wounds. PM do however have a ranged attack, but it is nothing special, and demons are twice as good at melee.