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I have developed a list designed for 'Ard boyz, but probalby not gonna be used for 'Ard Boyz due to budgetary constraints and the fact that I won't be ablt to paint them to any quality, let alone tabletop standard by September. But I like the list so much, I thought I would put it here for people's review.

Headquarters

Battlesuit Shas'O [175]
Plasma Rifle; Shield Generator; Vectored Retro-thrusters; Iridium Armor; Shield Drone; Shield Drone

Ethereal [110]
Marker Drone; Marker Drone

Honor Guard [144]
12 Honor Guard with pulse rifle

Elites

Crisis Battlesuit Team [186]
3 Plasma Rifles; 3 Missile Pods; 3 Multi-trackers

Crisis Battlesuit Team [144]
3 Twin-linked Flamers; 3 Fusion Blasters; 3 Hard-wired Multi-trackers

Troops

Fire Warrior Squad [135]
12 Fire Warriors with pulse rifles; Shas'ui; Bonding Knife

Fire Warrior Squad [135]
12 Fire Warriors with pulse rifles; Shas'ui; Bonding Knife

Fire Warrior Squad [135]
12 Fire Warriors with pulse rifles; Shas'ui; Bonding Knife

Kroot Carnivore Squad [70]
10 Kroot

Kroot Carnivore Squad [70]
10 Kroot

Kroot Carnivore Squad [200]
20 Kroot; 10 Hounds

Fast Attack

Pathfinder Team [143]
4 Pathfinders; Devilfish; Disruption Pod; Fletchette Discharger

Pathfinder team [143]
4 Pathfinders Devilfish; Disruption Pod; Fletchette Discharger

Piranha Squadron [130]
2 Piranhas; 2 Fusion Blasters

Heavy Support

Hammerhead [180]
Two Burst Cannons; Railgun; Disruption Pod; Multi-tracker; Targetting Array; Seeker Missile

Hammerhead [180]
Two Burst Cannons; Railgun; Disruption Pod; Multi-tracker; Targetting Array; Seeker Missile

Hammerhead [180]
Two Burst Cannons; Railgun; Disruption Pod; Multi-tracker; Targetting Array; Seeker Missile


Alot of this army isn't set in stone as to what I want, specifically a couple superfluous upgrades here and there such as the marker drones with the ethereal. The idea I have behind this army is a stand alone base (FW and PF and Hammerheads), a HQ/Troublemaker hunting Fish of Fury (the smaller kroot and the ethereal and his boys) division and an objective/flanking division (the Shas'o with the Plas/Pod suits and the larger unit of kroot along with the tank hunting piranhas. A key is to deploy 12' away from the table edges with my "stay at home" ase to avoid flankers and allow them to double tap with three squads and three hammerheads to prevent the flankers
The philosophy is to lay down a concentration of fire with saturation of fire.

This isn't bad but it just feels like you are trying to do everything you can without focusing on one thing.

Alot of stuff isn't optimized, either. Piranhas with fusion blasters but no target lock and no arrays?

Kroot are no good in 10 man squads.

Ethereal and 12 FW don't fit in a devilfish...

I do have to agree with you Stelek, that a lot of my stuff isn't optimized, mostly because the list isn't actually complete yet. I am an idiot and only just realizing that Targetting array isn't as expensive as I thought it was and a lot more upgrades can be put in once I read over the codex one more time to find some more tricks to throw in. Also, I don't see the point in target lock for piranhas, as it is more efficient to shoot twice on one target then split fire and risk missing with the other or not scoring high enough. Broadsides are the only ones who I think really benefit from this upgrade.

I like the kroot because of how Fish O' Fury works. If you load up a devilfish or two, the fish block line of sight to the Fire Warrior squad running behind it (not in it, because I knew they didn't fit) and run towards a close combat threat or something big and tempt the guys to attack the Fish or prevent them from running around and and killing the FW squad, then unless the Fish get immobilised, move out of the way, drop rapid fire on them and then drop out the two 10 man squads of kroot together on the remainder to either rapid fire themselves or assualt. The tactic is much more advanced then this basic description (can be found on Advanced Tau Tactica dot com) and has variables when approaching something like jump troops or if anti tank is getitng too close or if its a chaos army with lash, etc.

But I was wondering if my main base, the one with the FW squads and the Pathfinders are optimized enough. The point of them is to provide covering fire really. 36 S5 shots for infantry, with 2 4-man markerlight teams, and three Hammerheads for big anti-tank capabilities and to distract from my devilfish and piranhas against their anti-tank stuff.

I am looking for criticism on my battlesuits. I've read up on the twin-linked flamer strategy and dropping them in to hose down enemy held objectives for my guys. But I don't feel they are optimized enough. CC anybody?

I'm a bit iffy on those pathfinders. During the GD Baltimore tourny, I found them to be a huge point-sink for me, since 2 out of the 3 games they took serious casualties and reduced their effectiveness to nothing. It might be different now that they can scout while in their devilfish. Also, there is the upside that you can use their D-fishes to run firewarriors around the map, but is it worth paying the points 96 points for the pathfinders themselves? I don't really know. Against a decent oopponent, they are going to be a target for some heavy fire(right after those Hammerheads, but they should survive...).

Speaking of Hammerheads, I'd say take SMS and target-locks with them. I've always found the ability to put a few extra shots into a second enemy up to 24" away to be a great asset to me.

I'd say skip the Ethereal. You don't know what kind of enemies you're going to face, and what they'll be armed with. You stand to lose a significant portion of your army if that Ethereal is taken out. Even with the "ablative" wounds of the Honor Guard, if a single enemy squad manages to put 16 wounds into the unit, you lost the ethereal, and the effects of that loss can be devestating (as one of my semi-regular local opponents has discovered more than a few times). And if a single unit is capable of shooting at the ethereal and co, then you can bet your arse that there will be a couple other units with the same capability.

Also, your Shas'o is looking a bit weak to me. 5th edition nerfed shield drones. There is no point to taking them anymore, as they cannot take the wounds for your Shas'O any longer. Then there is the fact that you gave him Iridium armor. Yes he has a 2+/4+ save, but there is also the fact that you roll a d6 for your assault-move. If you roll a 1 then you risk getting caught in combat. If you survive, you get the benefit of hit and run, but if you don't pass your initiative test you won't get to jump out and you're still locked in the combat. Add to the fact that the new combat resolution rules mean that you will probably be failing most of the combat you're in anyway (Ld check at -1 for each wound inflicted on you over the number inflicted against them) means you probably won't even have the chance to take the Hit and Run option. I really don't see much of a point to him really. The single plasma rifle he's packing isn't going to be enough to really do anything...

Your first elite crisis team is a lot better. I personally prefer to go twin linked of one or the other, unless I'm packing a targetting array, but you do get more shots off with your loadout(although I wouldn't exactly call it optimized. the plasma rifles are great at tearing up TEQ and MEQ, and can do their job pretty well against virtually any other non-vehicle unit. The Missile Pods on the other hand aren't quite as effective vs. marines and even less so against termies, but are great at popping light vehicles, and hold their own vs. medium vehicles, and are useful for taking out high toughness units (with negligible armor) etc. Generally, if you're using the Missile Pods against vehicles, your plasma shots might help, but they won't be that effective. Likewise, if you're going marine hunting, your missile shots might help, but they won't be as effective. As you're not equipped with targetting arrays, you're hitting on a 4+ which means you're not going to be getting a whole lot of shots off, not as much as if you had a targetting array(in which case you wouldn't be able to fire both weapons or you just took a t-l'd one in which case you couldn't have as much versatility in what the unit is good at). I personally prefer to have units that can focus in on one task specifically (be it vehicle hunting missile pods or meq/teq hunting plasma rifles), rather than a jack-of-all trades unit that can do either so-so. I know with a specialist unit that I can get the job done, while, in my experience, the jack-of-all trades don't do it nearly as well.

Your second elite crisis team worries me greatly. Firstly because it is illegal. You cannot give a hard-wired wargear item to a non-team leader elite crisis battlesuit team. That means you're going to have to go with non-tl'd flamers (for a multitracker), or drop the fusion blasters and find another support item to replace the multi-trackers. Really, I just think thats a bad loadout in general. If you're firing the fusion blasters at a vehicle, that means you're probably not using the flamers, unless you get lucky and can place the template over the vehicle and still, somehow, hit infantry with it. It also means that if you ARE firing the flamers, you're going to suffer from the law of diminishing returns (your opponent will remove models creatively in order to minimize potential casualties from each successive flamer blast), which means you WILL be in assault range on your opponents turn. If not from that unit, then probably from another enemy unit (as finding a lone enemy unit to target should not be your expectation. Where theres one theres others, always assume that much). Also, you're at 4+ to hit with those fusion blasters. Go t-l or targetting array. I can't begin to tell you how many times my melta-suits failed to hit their target because of this.

Your troops choices are looking pretty good, aside from 2 out of the 3 Kroot units. You can get away with 10-man squads, but with their low LD and low model count, the unit will be reduced in effectiveness quickly. Don't assume that you will have the benefit of woods in your games. You probably will, but if you're playing by that assumption, and then it turns out just one of the 3 games you play doesn't have woods, and then you have to take 4+ cover saves instead of 3+ ones, that can break the game for you. The Kroot Hounds were a good move though.

Finally Piranha's. Ermm... I have very little experience with them, so I'm just going to go based off of my own thoughts on them. Take them with Burst Cannons in a squad of 3 or more or a lone piranha with a fusion blaster, or don't take them at all. They have paper thin armor. If you're within range of a vehicle with their fusion blasters, then I'm going to guess that you're also within rapid fire range of at least one infantry unit, and provided you're not playing against guard, that means that they can probably get a side arc shot on you, all they need are those 6's....

All in all, I'd say scrap the list and start over. There is some potential in there, but a large part of it is... well, not to well though out. You could probably get away with not scrapping it and just fixing it, but starting over new is easier, since there are a lot of unit upgrades that you should probably be taking which will significantly effect how many points you will have available to spend on other things. Not trying to be hard on you, just I don't really see this working to your advantage.

My only comment that wasn't already said is...Devilfish do not block LOS to Fire Warriors.

@EmperorsGrandson

I must say the list you are constructing is very fun, fluffy, and yet devastatingly competitive, but some aspects could be polished.

If one has a lot of FW's and suits on the field beyond the norm it is best to bring an Ethereal like you have, but an Ethereal can die very easy. Tau's Pope is also subject to this, but one character isn't - Shadow Sun.

Crisis w/ Flamers are a sight to see, but by standard all Crisis should always have a MP.

Make use of your static base by fielding even more FW's since they can make use of Ld buffs from special or unique commanders and ML's from PF's.

If you take FW's in bulk you could easily get away with taking PF's in bulk also. They come w/ a Taxi so ultimately they only cost you 96 pts for the full 8 man squad.

RH's are always a great addition, but BASS could be a great boon to the list.

Path to victory:
S4/5, S7, S10

Quoted from: Stelek
Kroot are no good in 10 man squads.

I needed a good laugh today.

I don't think there are painting scores for Ard Boys

@Spec.Ops, are you saying kroot in 10 man squads are good?

I sure hope not.

LOL, 10 man carnivore squads are quite good - quite good.

I can count on one hand the amount of times I have lost with Tau, and I must admit I owe that honor to my 10 man Kroot packs. They are small enough to be ignored, share a forest, allow me breathing room, VP denial, speed bump, cost effective, bait, etc...

Quoted from: (Rank: Shas' EL) eiglepulper
One thing to add: don't belittle our Kroot allies. Ever. They are not just a speed bump. I had at least one other guy say incredulously: "You're taking Kroot?" My 20 (2x10) guys performed excellently today, contributing with sniping shots or rapid fire volleys against unsuspecting enemies and claiming a wound off a Bonecrusher, two dead Guardians from extreme range, half a Dire Avenger squad, and a Harlequin. In combat, they finished off a Dire Avenger unit, took on and killed two Flesh Hounds (lost out to Initiative there), took down a Harlequin with 5 Kroot. With bigger squads containing Kroot Hounds they become even more deadly, but I just didn't have the points available. My only gripe is their not having a save unless you pay over the odds for it.

Folks just don't give these birds enough credit!

Big squads are cool too, heck, I used to play with Kroot Mercs, but large Kroot squads are a novelty in a Tau list.

Kroot Tactica

chaos0xomega wrote:I'm a bit iffy on those pathfinders. During the GD Baltimore tourny, I found them to be a huge point-sink for me, since 2 out of the 3 games they took serious casualties and reduced their effectiveness to nothing. It might be different now that they can scout while in their devilfish. Also, there is the upside that you can use their D-fishes to run firewarriors around the map, but is it worth paying the points 96 points for the pathfinders themselves? I don't really know. Against a decent oopponent, they are going to be a target for some heavy fire(right after those Hammerheads, but they should survive...).

I've found that pathfinders in any army list, unless dropped by themselves or have some rail rifles with them, are not usually targets as they are just a couple troops with what seems to be ineffective weapons. Though with this lists dependance somewhat on markerlights, I could use another squad or position them behind the FW for a 4+ cover save.

chaos0xomega wrote: of Hammerheads, I'd say take SMS and target-locks with them. I've always found the ability to put a few extra shots into a second enemy up to 24" away to be a great asset to me.

Since the Hammerheads will usually be in my fire base, I find that 36 S 5 AP 5 from my FW are enough. By saving 10 points I Get 6 S5 AP5 shots that are more fitting since I need the two extra shots on these closer opponents, though I guess target lock would be useful for this. I'll consider this. BTW, for anyone wondering, the multi-tracker is nice for me because it allows my 'heads to move in a position that could get me LOS on something trying to hide behind cover. Very convenient.

chaos0xomega wrote: say skip the Ethereal. You don't know what kind of enemies you're going to face, and what they'll be armed with. You stand to lose a significant portion of your army if that Ethereal is taken out. Even with the "ablative" wounds of the Honor Guard, if a single enemy squad manages to put 16 wounds into the unit, you lost the ethereal, and the effects of that loss can be devestating (as one of my semi-regular local opponents has discovered more than a few times). And if a single unit is capable of shooting at the ethereal and co, then you can bet your arse that there will be a couple other units with the same capability.

The ethereal and his honor guard are positioned behind the two devilfish to prevent LOS from any serious fire (anything more then 12' away cannot see through a 'fish on a low base to the fire warriors feet, as tested by me). The honor guard, the two 'fish, and the 2 ten men kroot squad inside the two 'fish are used to create the tactic of Fish of Fury, which specializes in allowing me to get the rapid fire into any infantry squad and then letting the kroot jump out and defeat the rest of the squad. I realize that the thought of the ethereal dying is a risk, but a risk I am willing to take.

chaos0xomega wrote:, your Shas'o is looking a bit weak to me. 5th edition nerfed shield drones. There is no point to taking them anymore, as they cannot take the wounds for your Shas'O any longer. Then there is the fact that you gave him Iridium armor. Yes he has a 2+/4+ save, but there is also the fact that you roll a d6 for your assault-move. If you roll a 1 then you risk getting caught in combat. If you survive, you get the benefit of hit and run, but if you don't pass your initiative test you won't get to jump out and you're still locked in the combat. Add to the fact that the new combat resolution rules mean that you will probably be failing most of the combat you're in anyway (Ld check at -1 for each wound inflicted on you over the number inflicted against them) means you probably won't even have the chance to take the Hit and Run option. I really don't see much of a point to him really. The single plasma rifle he's packing isn't going to be enough to really do anything...

Well, on some, if not most points here, you got me. I haven't really optimized him yet. I realize how much of an idiot I am of thinking the vectored retro thrusters was a good idea. I am thinking of giving him another weapon, probably a fusion blaster or something like that. The iridium armor is extremely useful as there are lots of AP 3 weapons out there, and with the two shield drones, they kind of provide cover for my 'escort' suit team, which uses utilizes the popular choice of missiles and plasma, which is also very useful in game for both light armor and infantry. I am thinking of making them bodyguard to give them some targeting arrays.

chaos0xomega wrote: first elite crisis team is a lot better. I personally prefer to go twin linked of one or the other, unless I'm packing a targetting array, but you do get more shots off with your loadout(although I wouldn't exactly call it optimized. the plasma rifles are great at tearing up TEQ and MEQ, and can do their job pretty well against virtually any other non-vehicle unit. The Missile Pods on the other hand aren't quite as effective vs. marines and even less so against termies, but are great at popping light vehicles, and hold their own vs. medium vehicles, and are useful for taking out high toughness units (with negligible armor) etc. Generally, if you're using the Missile Pods against vehicles, your plasma shots might help, but they won't be that effective. Likewise, if you're going marine hunting, your missile shots might help, but they won't be as effective. As you're not equipped with targetting arrays, you're hitting on a 4+ which means you're not going to be getting a whole lot of shots off, not as much as if you had a targetting array(in which case you wouldn't be able to fire both weapons or you just took a t-l'd one in which case you couldn't have as much versatility in what the unit is good at). I personally prefer to have units that can focus in on one task specifically (be it vehicle hunting missile pods or meq/teq hunting plasma rifles), rather than a jack-of-all trades unit that can do either so-so. I know with a specialist unit that I can get the job done, while, in my experience, the jack-of-all trades don't do it nearly as well.

I mentioned above that I like my plasma/missile combo enough to keep them no matter what they say (lqtm). I am probably going with honor-guard to give them targeting arrays and even twin-link something.

chaos0xomega wrote: second elite crisis team worries me greatly. Firstly because it is illegal. You cannot give a hard-wired wargear item to a non-team leader elite crisis battlesuit team. That means you're going to have to go with non-tl'd flamers (for a multitracker), or drop the fusion blasters and find another support item to replace the multi-trackers. Really, I just think thats a bad loadout in general. If you're firing the fusion blasters at a vehicle, that means you're probably not using the flamers, unless you get lucky and can place the template over the vehicle and still, somehow, hit infantry with it. It also means that if you ARE firing the flamers, you're going to suffer from the law of diminishing returns (your opponent will remove models creatively in order to minimize potential casualties from each successive flamer blast), which means you WILL be in assault range on your opponents turn. If not from that unit, then probably from another enemy unit (as finding a lone enemy unit to target should not be your expectation. Where theres one theres others, always assume that much). Also, you're at 4+ to hit with those fusion blasters. Go t-l or targetting array. I can't begin to tell you how many times my melta-suits failed to hit their target because of this.

The rules for wound distribution require that all the flamer templates form the separate models in the same squad be placed and rolled for before armor saves are taken, thus maximizing amount of wounds given out. Twin linking them gives even more casualties, but now since i realize they are illegal, I must find something to do with the third option. Maybe keep the fusion blasters for when any tanks nearby.

chaos0xomega wrote: troops choices are looking pretty good, aside from 2 out of the 3 Kroot units. You can get away with 10-man squads, but with their low LD and low model count, the unit will be reduced in effectiveness quickly. Don't assume that you will have the benefit of woods in your games. You probably will, but if you're playing by that assumption, and then it turns out just one of the 3 games you play doesn't have woods, and then you have to take 4+ cover saves instead of 3+ ones, that can break the game for you. The Kroot Hounds were a good move though.

'
Well, the ten men squads I plan to keep in the devilfishes via Fish of Fury, and even for the 30 man strong unit, I am not really expecting any woods, mostly just cover of any kind (especially around my area, where all the 40k areas are mostly dead cities)

chaos0xomega wrote: Piranha's. Ermm... I have very little experience with them, so I'm just going to go based off of my own thoughts on them. Take them with Burst Cannons in a squad of 3 or more or a lone piranha with a fusion blaster, or don't take them at all. They have paper thin armor. If you're within range of a vehicle with their fusion blasters, then I'm going to guess that you're also within rapid fire range of at least one infantry unit, and provided you're not playing against guard, that means that they can probably get a side arc shot on you, all they need are those 6's....

The two man piranha squadron is useful, I think because I need capable close anti-tank, and two shots is more reliable then one. Though I think I should give them disruption pods and targeting arrays for safety reasons. A three ship piranha squadron with burst cannons are useless, I think. they get shot at fast, and their job can be done by deep striking stealth suits.

chaos0xomega wrote: in all, I'd say scrap the list and start over. There is some potential in there, but a large part of it is... well, not to well though out. You could probably get away with not scrapping it and just fixing it, but starting over new is easier, since there are a lot of unit upgrades that you should probably be taking which will significantly effect how many points you will have available to spend on other things. Not trying to be hard on you, just I don't really see this working to your advantage.

Well I'm not scrapping it, but I am definitely adjusting it for the extra points I am adding to it. Thanks though for the constructive criticism. It is definitely helping me streamline my list.

I like how you "laugh" then tell us your 10 man kroot squads are uber.

Very amusing.

I didn't mean to make them sound uber, just that I like them in my tactic I use. I am well aware that the transports could die, stranding my guys to death because 10 kroot then become kannon fodder (lqtm, k instead of a c, I'm a genius...I like to keep lighthearted, don't judge). Also, I am aware that this tactic with using the kroot in close combat is not good against anything with serious CC skills themselves. Lets face it, kroot are at best speed bumps in CC.
Thats why I use them in this tactic of Fish of Fury. Its the easiest way to use them effectively without relying on wooded areas.