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There's a rule dispute going on over at WarSeer which brought up an interesting point.

In 4th Edition, in assaults against vehicles in a vehicle squadron, attacks were allocated against specific models.
In 5th Edition, attacks are made against the squadron as a whole.
The Tau fleschette discharger says that models attacking the equipped vehicle suffer a wound on 4+.

So, given F fleschette dischargers in a squadron of S vehicles, and M attacking models, how many dice should be rolled for fleschettes?
Does each feschette discharger on each vehicle trigger against the whole group of attackers?

Good question.

It would seem by the rules that every model attacking should get shot at by every vehicle which is equipped with flechettes.

What are the counter-arguments?

Kilkrazy wrote:Good question.

It would seem by the rules that every model attacking should get shot at by every vehicle which is equipped with flechettes.

What are the counter-arguments?

The counter argument, I guess, would be that since glancing/penetrating hits are allocated to specific vehicles if somehow you were able to track which dice were thrown by which attacking model it could be said they are only attacking a specific vehicle. Especially when dealing with a model with 1 attack, it is easy to figure that such a model could only attack one vehicle.


It's a sloppy situation to be sure. I think the two best answers are:


RAW: All models attacking the squadron take flechette hits from each vehicle in the squadron with the upgrade.

House rule that makes more sense: Only the vehicle that a model is actually engaged with causes flechette hits (in base contact with or, if not in base contact, within 2" of a model that is in base contact).

Gee, post a crazy Tau list and everyone gets in on the action.

House rules are nice, but forcing GW to amend the rules so that 5 piranha squadrons don't laugh at CC armies is really the best solution.

Personally I think it should be FAQ'd to one hit per model per unit attacked.

I.E. Piranha's shouldn't get a free pass because GW ed up.

Yes, it's pretty clear GW simply didn't consider the effect of flechettes in H2H vs vehicle squadrons when they wrote the 5th edition rules.

Given squadron coherency distance (4 inches) it's fairly likely that an assaulting unit would only be able to reach one or two vehicles in a squadron. However, if I understand the assault rules correctly, all the vehicles in the squadron take hits scored by the attackers.

It doesn't seem fair to let the assaulters hit vehicles they can't reach, while preventing the vehicles being hit from getting their defensive flechette shot. OTOH a squadron of 5 Piranhas would put up a hell of a blast of flechette fire.

Perhaps the fairest rule would be to allow the assaulters to score hits only on the vehicles they actually contact, and only let those vehicles shoot their flechettes.

Here is the way I see it.

You assault the entire squadron. But then the special FD rules create a special situation. As they only trigger on the models (not units) that attack that vehicle.
So at this point, you need to determine which models are attacking that specific vehicle. Granted, the damage may be dealt to other vehicles, but that is a different issue.

Once you determine which models are attacking that vehicle, then you roll for FD and they take damage.

If the squadron only has a few with FD, then it would be smart for the attacker to concentrate on the other ones... which also makes sense.

Why would you roll for specific attackers? What rules supports this conclusion please?

The FD rules. They specifically state that you have to attack that vehicle, not that vehicles squadron. So to follow that rule, you have to know which models are attacking that vehicle.

I do not agree that attacking vehicle A in the squadron is the same is attacking all the vehicles in the squadron.

As for specific attackers, I only mean per vehicle, not per attacking model. So if 32 HGs attack 5 piranas, and 8 attack P1, then the FD get to roll for those 8. Because the FD rules state it as such.

Can you quote it for sake of argument?

The way the Assault rules work, the 32 HGs can attack a squadron of 5 Piranhas, touch one model, deal 10 hits, and the hits are spread around, 3 to each Piranha and a 4th to whichever the owning player wants. The other two Piranhas don't get a shot with their flechettes, although they get attacked. This doesn't seem fair.

There are different ways around this. The easy way is to assume that all the Piranhas shoot at all the attackers. This is tough on the assaulters.

The harder way is to assume that 1/3rd of the attackers attack each Piranha, and roll their flechette saves, before rolling for the assault hits. This seems fairer to both sides.

Stelek wrote:Can you quote it for sake of argument?

"Any model attacking the vehicle ..." is the phrase used.

Stelek wrote:Can you quote it for sake of argument?

Sorry, misunderstood.

It is as Solkan states:

Any model attacking the vehicle in close combat will be wounded on a D6 roll of 4+, with saves allowed, before resolving its attacks.



Which brings up another point. The rules do not indicate multiple rolls. The ships do not shoot or attack the HGs; but rather each HG that attacks has a chance to take a wound.

kilkrazy wrote:he way the Assault rules work, the 32 HGs can attack a squadron of 5 Piranhas, touch one model, deal 10 hits,.

It 'could' happen. But realistically, if all of the HGs can get engaged with one pirana, they can likely get into base contact with at least 3 of them. And it is likely that they will hit on 6, AP on 6; so more like 3 glances total. Just wanting to highlight that the example you are using to determine 'fair' is a pretty rare occurrence.

3 to each Piranha and a 4th to whichever the owning player wants.

I am not sure if you meant your example to have 3 or 5 piranas.

The harder way is to assume that 1/3rd of the attackers attack each Piranha, and roll their flechette saves, before rolling for the assault hits. This seems fairer to both sides.

I like this; it has the same basic concept of determining who is actually attacking what... but is much simpler.

>>It 'could' happen. But realistically, if all of the HGs can get engaged with one pirana, they can likely get into base contact with at least 3 of them.

Let's say the HGs are 4 inches away from the first Piranha and the other Piranhas are 4 inches further back in a kind of arrowhead formation.

Anyway, I wouldn't quibble about extreme cases as a solid rule would cover them properly as well as typical cases.