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is there any sensible shooting in the daemon army list? i mean daemons shooting already suck, i know, but is there one that doesnt suck as the already sucky shooting? i mean im struggling taking out vindicators, what would be the optimum shooting for a daemon list?

A shooty Daemon army must be Tzeentch based:
Two Greater Daemons of Tzeentch, 3 squads of Flamers, 6 units of Horrors, 3 packs of Screamers, and 3 Soul Grinders.

You might swap in Kairos to make the army more annoying.

Personally I see Tzeentch demon armies as a alpha strike and lose army.

See it doesn't take much to hit your clumped up troops (blasts will usually hit everyone) and that means alot of saves taken.

4+ save doesn't mean much then.

In fact, blasts are a problem for each Daemon army. I'd take two larger packs of Plague Bearers with icons for safe summoning.

i see, well i didnt have a tzeentch themed army in mind but really meant like, what type of shooting would a daemon army normally have?

Well, a Daemon army is generally assault-based. Its fast and hard hitting in cc. Shooting is more an add-on to soften the enemy before the charge.

so the general 2 squads or 1 squad of flamers is all the shooting i need maybe? perhaps a soul grinder?

Flamers are good vs MEQ. They can easily fry Marines. But they are usually one hit wonders. If the Marines shoot back they will die.
If you take Soul Grinders then take three of them.

Take 3 squads of flamers. Try to take 3-4 per squad.

Alternately, consider Tzeentch Heralds on Chariots, with Master of Sorcery, We Are Legion, and Bolt of Tzeentch. At only 110 points, you've got a model with BS4, one S8 AP1 shot and three S5 AP3 shots, which can both be fired in the same phase and be targeted at different units, who moves like a jetbike and has 5 wounds and a 4++. Not too shabby.

Otherwise, I really like Flamers, and tend to be very aggressive and risky in my initial placement with them - they'll wreck most units if they're clumped up at all. I use two squads of 3, and that's usually enough to take out a full 10-man squad. Horrors are good for shooting at weaker units, anything not in MEQ armor, but do suffer on the return shots, so try to make sure nothing can shoot them back (and take the Changeling, just in case).

Not much experience with Soul Grinders yet, but they look like they should be pretty good. Just remember, even if fire the large blast shot, you can still fire the Harvester, as Phlegm is not Ordnance.

is it a viable option to take in BoT with the flamers?

Not really, but it depends how you use them. Ideally, they're best using their Breath to waste units, and while you can use them against vehicles in a pinch that's not their preferred target. Better would be the Heralds I mentioned, small squads of 5 Horrors with Bolt, or Tzeentch daemon princes with Bolt.

For my shooting I have 1 unit of flamers, LoC, and a nurgle DP w/breath. This is in addition to the two Soul Grinders.

Soul Grinder!

If you're having trouble shooting down vehicles, stick out your Tongue at them! S 10 AP 1 is massive against vehicles, even if the 'Grinder is only BS 3...

I think tzeentch marked DPs are excellent shooting. They don't really cost you an effective close combat unit either.

try a DP with mark of tzeentch, bolt of tzeentch, gaze of chaos

that gives you a nasty close combat MC that fires 4 ap3 shots at BS5 every turn until it gets into close combat. The 4+ invulnerable makes not taking iron hide possible (note i did not say better than iron hide), and the quality shooting takes the place of the 60 point wings.

You have a decent shot at tanks or a great salvo of shots against marines with this guy, and hes still a beast in close combat.

hhmmm il consider the DP's for shooting. would 3 tzeentch heralds on chariots make a good replacements for a LOC?

I think from the few games I've done so far that I'm going to bring 3 groups of horrors, with a bolt, 3 groups of 3 flamers, 3 groups of bloodletters, fateweaver, and masque. Fateweaver with the tzeentch daemons has worked amazingly well for me, so long as he's near, I've done great on saving on the incoming fire, and you can put out a sick amount of shots if you wish. And while the horrors aren't what you really want to get into close combat, a 4+ invulnerable save is a great way to tie up a squad full of power weapons, particularly if the guy who gives you the chance to reroll is nearby. And I have literally taken out squads at a time with the flame templates on the flamer, and even though I only have 3 in a squad, the other shooting they do has gotten peoples attention. I'd say include some. For two reasons if nothing else, 1) Mystics and 2) the new Land Speeder I've heard rumors about. Drop far enough out so the mystic can't see you, then you can snipe his unit with your shooting, and you can also snipe the landspeeder that voids your icons and doubles your deviation with your bolt.

well i've had bad history of that chicken sh*t weaver. but i think il give him another shot. i totally prefer daemonettes more than the bloodletters. they are too slow. and i think that they get pretty shot up in the beginning. like i was asking earlier. 3 heralds on chariots with bolt/we are legion and master of magic suffice in hte place of weaver?

Yes, no, maybe. Granted, he's pricey. And yeah, that morale check and disappear thing can hurt. But then, it's also a 9 leadership. Now, with the 3 heralds, you do have more shootiness, and can cover more area since they can split up. What you're giving up though, to me, isn't worth it, IMHO. First He's BS5, you're going to hit most of the time. He get's 3 different shooting attacks each round (Monstrous creature, and then the we are legion and mast of magic for an additional), at up to 3 potential targets. T5, so he's going to be harder to hurt till people start unloading heavy weapons at him. And with a rerollable 3+ invulnerable save, he is hard to wound.

You have a 10 model unit of horrors that take 20 wounds in a round, save half on your 4+, they're all gone. He's nearby, save half again, you're still at half Strength. Simple numbers, may not work that way in each instance, but over time thats about what it comes out to. He's a force multiplier all by himself. Plus the psychological effect it has on opponents when they see you've apparently lost half, or better, or a squad, and you pick up the fails and roll them again, is hard to measure, but the look on their faces sometimes is priceless.

But then again, I haven't had him flee off the table yet either. The times I've taken him and he's gotten wounded, I managed to make my leadership.

hmm i just realized he himself gets his 3+ invul save as well. imma play test him in the week end. is there a certain list that revolves around fateweaver aside from jsut horrors?

One thing that should be mentioned about horrors is their assault potential.

I keep them in the first wave and blast the crap out of someone when they come in. My opponent usually then focuses on the hth elements.

Next turn you shoot the horrors again and actually charge with them. They hang around enough to get the big boyz in.

It's a pretty good trap. I blew up a black templar army pretty hard the other night because of it.

As for shooting I've had a lot of luck with 3 soul grinders. They are so cheap for what you pay, and they go way up in value with more of them. 3 AV 13 vehicles in your face are tough to deal with. Then they unleash and destroy you.

Pete

5 man horror units with a bolt is a cost effective way of adding shooting. They will mostly be a support to all your assult units but can hurt both vechiles and troops fairly well.

well i wiffed up this list seeing that people tell me to add horrors to my list. here goes.

3 Heralds 330 pts
Master of sorc, We are legion, Bolt, chariot

3 flamers 105

3 flamers 105

3 flamers 105

7 horrors 129
bolt

7 horrors 129
bolt

7 horrors 154
bolt and icon

8 seekers 136

8 seekers 136

1 soulgrinder 160
phlegm

total of 1489

gimme sum c n c please. takeing in the fateweaver is definetly an option if i have an idea what im facing.

I think that having so many small units is going to cause you more problems than you realize when it comes to objective based games.

Eric

The flamers are awesome. Don't plan on them sticking around. If someone lets them get a second round, then they're insane, or really don't understand what's going on. The other thing is with only 3 squads of horrors, even with a 4+ save on them, you only have 21 models, in 3 units, to try to hold objectives with. You're going to lose them, pretty quick. Need to figure out a way to beef up your number of troop choices, and what you have in them.

i see. so shud i still stick to 3 man squads of plague bearers? im thinking of its a viable option to get rid of a herald to add a 4th squad of plague bearers/horrors/bloodletters or whatever fits.