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classicaly I have run my swordsmasters and white lions i fifteen to twenty man units. I have heard of smaller sizes being run. what is the consensus

14 in 2 x7 maximizes your attacks but you don't have as much rank bonus and are in trouble if you get hit in the flank.

depends on the units
white lions i run 10-15, they dont need numbers, stuborn will help you get a flanking unit into position

swordmasters i run 10-14, they can take on units from the front

phenix guard i run 20-25, they need the ranks to make up for lack of damage and they will auto break a lot of guys out there.

dragon princes I usually run 6. they dont need ranks and ranks are EXPENSIVE

I generally try to run more units rather than less.

How much shooting/magic missiles is your opponent likely to have.

None = lots of small units of swordsmasters (my priority unit to kill when I play against HEs.)

Moderate = units 0f 10-15

Lots- 15min (although WLs do get the extra save to help them against shooting and PG have the ward save)

WLs FTW: Stubborn, run through forests, St 6 attack ASF and decent save vs missiles = WIN!

15 for infantry
5 for cavalry

I base this on the boxset sizes. Three boxsets for infantry, one boxset for the cavalry.

Given the choice I would go 6 for cavalry, but still 15 for infantry. 20 is too expensive and many.

Dragon princes run at 6 is a favorite option of the top HE players here in Oz.

Another sneaky tactic is 15 white lions, with banner of fear and terror ignoring, and BSB on barded horse with battle banner as a hammer/anvil unit.

IMO you need t have at least ranks of 6 for every unit in the game and things like elves could even go up to units of 7 wide just because the 5 frontage just isn't enough to do the damage in combat they could as that 1 attack will eventually turn the tide of a combat in at least one game and adding on;y one man to each rank isn't too bad points wise

With ASF you would be crazy not to go at least 6 wide, with the exception of against brettonians, too large a frontage will alow multiple charges and its all over for the HEs...

As people are saying ranks should be 6 or 7 wide for White Lions and Swordmasters up to 2 ranks deep. Phoenix Guard can go 20 strong to get their static CR up and hopefully outnumber with fear.

i dunno i personally think that you'd be ok to put the elites n foot in units of 18 with a frontage of 6 because then your only two less in CR in a straight up fight against a normal block with 4 ranks, banner and numbers. to lessen that gap a little more you can put the war banner in the unit which ain't bad for only 20pts.

For how large they should be you need to decide what the unit will do. I envision white lioins simply as units to hold up the enemy. They should be smaller units that stand in the way and let spearmen/swordmasters come arround the flanks.

Swordmasters should be big enough to take on ranked units from the front. Usually this means they need the +1 bonus for 1 rank and the +1 bonus from a banner to reliably do it (even swordmasters wiff attacks)

Phenix guard should almost always be large units. They arent that usefull as smaller units except for flanking skeletons and holding them (cause fear cancels)

phoenix guard are basically a tar pit in terms of getting rid of via shooting and therefore best as caddies for lords and BSB's. they have have a ward of 4+ which can end up saving mass amounts of troops

white lions are good for sitting still all the time, and sword masters good for breaking an enemy

All three have their role. I would still go for 15 for conveneince and efficiency.

The standard formation is 5x3, modified as needed. The 5x3 formation is very effective, until it takes casualties. Thus it is most use against armies with no missile troops, holding a narrow position or as a block to flank an engaged line unit. Taking 6x3 or 7x3 costs too much, plus 45pts and plus 90pts respectively, for that price you are better off holding your second rank and abandoning getting a bionus from a third. 5x4 or bigger is way out, if you want big take spearelves.
Extend the line gives you two ranks of six or seven plus spare at the back. Cutting to 12 or 14 does not work as you lose your second rank bonus very quickly.

Swordmasters and White Lions need a wider frontage formation, though you can adapt as you see fit. As you dont need the charge you can afford to spend time to tailoring the width of your units durinmg battle

Phoenix Guard I normally would keep at 5x3. While a block unit you do not need many as the ward save should halve the number of points you lose from wounds. 15 Phoenix Guard is exceptionally resilient. fear and outnumbering is irrelevant due to cost, fear helps instead by allowing small units of Phoenix Guard to stand up to large units of undead. This is the perfect linchpin unit for High Elves

Can Swordmasters and White Lions be effective in a line of
7, but with 3 in the back to weather the wounds? Or is SCR
the way to go?

Swordmasters can because they usually kill enough to take minimal damage

white lions dont always kill enough and start taking damage (the are prety weak once you attack them)

White Lions are there for the impact, stubborn helps them stay but the extra attack of Swordmasters is better in the long term.

However neither unit if for a drawn out fight, spearelves and Phoenix Guard do that, also oddly enough Silver Helms which should be valued for their 2+ save and not their lance charge. Swordmasters and White Lions make the lance charge largely superfluous.

malfred wrote:Can Swordmasters and White Lions be effective in a line of
7, but with 3 in the back to weather the wounds? Or is SCR
the way to go?

If you want to take 10 take two ranks of five, then you wan wheel as needed. also it compacts your frontage so you get supporting units in closer together. High Elf armies can apply enormous pressure to a singel point of an enemy line, exheeded only by Chaos. However if you want units that small you should think of units of six or seven in two ranks without rank bonus. This is only viable for a flanking unit, I would go two ranks of three. However for such a unit casualty negation is more important than hitting power so I weould take Phoenix Guard first, or Swordmasters to 'get the hits in'. White Lions are not really viable, the chance that enough survives to take two wounds of the unit is too high.
Increasing the unit to ten only increases the cost, not the raw effectiveness. that is 60pts you can spend elsewhere. If nothing else thats an Eagle and ten points to spend on your characters.

As for lines of seven. seven is a very useful number to trank up in. Its the largest guaranteed useful unit width, as you can attack a five wide unit with your entire frontage, remembering that can can and indeed must try to nudge more figures into combat, so it is not cheesy to get in both corner attacks. however seven is only really a magic number for spearelves. Spearelves ought to be in three ranks of seven. this way every elf attacks - none are wasted. You get one point short of full ranks bonus and claw that back by outnumbering the standard 5x4 block of twenty. All in all it is very efficient, even more so now that spearelves are cheaper. I always advocate unit size of twentyone for spearelves, but it is not a doctrine other elves need follow, they dont fight in three ranks.