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In my own desperate search for a way for guard to win in 5th, I took a look at the old white dwarfs. In US WD 302, the abhumans doctrines are published, one of which is noteworthy. I would like to direct people to skill and drills: Beasts. For three doctrine points (one for ab humans, one for beasts, one for conscripts) you get access to imperial beastmen, for 30 points per conscript platoon. This 30 points buys you +1 weapon skill and furious charge for the entire squad. At thirty conscripts, to match the maximum thirty orks, it seems like it could be a good deal.

for 30 Beastmen (150 points) vs 30 orks with shootas, including nob and powerklaw (215 points), and assuming the beastmen charge and all of both squads get into combat:

60 beastmen attacks, 30 of which hit, 15 wound, about 12 orks die. In return, 34 ork attacks about 22 hit, 11 wound, bout 9 guardsmen die, then the nob attacks 4 times, hits 3 times, wounds 3 (assuming no ones rolled) they deal equal wounds, the combat is drawn, but the beastmen deal more points in damage (72 points to 60 points), while the beastmen get worse in each round, they do make a fairly impresive showing for guard in combat.

vs marine equivalents, they get better, vs a squad of 10 space marines, including powerfist wielding sarge (around 173 points, I don't own that SM codex), ame assumptions as above:

60 beastmen attacks, 30 of which hit, 15 wound, 5 marines die. Simultaneously, 9 marine attacks, 6 hit, 4 wound, 3 guardsmen die, sergeant attacks 2 times, one hits, one wound. Guard wins combat.

I seriously believe that beastmen platoons could turn the tide for guard, even if they do not get the charge, its 150 points for 30 men, all of which can be deployed at once in dawn of war, and your enemy has to kill all thirty for one kill point. Plus according to the article the conversion work could be as simple as a more bestial color scheme for those troops.

For doctorine points I'm thinking:
Abhumans
Conscripts
beasts
veterans
drop troops

or, if you are willing to take last chancers to make up for a lack of vets:
Abhumans
Conscripts
beasts
veterans
drop troops

What do you all think? I am I on to something? Am I full of ? Is my mathhammer bad?

To my surprise, I checked quickly and found that while sharkticon may not be entirely sane, he is entirely correct.

Taking Conscripts, Abhumans and Beastmen does allow Conscripts to turn into WS3 lunatics with Furious Charge.

I'm going to add a wrinkle to his crazy plan:

Beastmen benefit from Close Order Drill (I4 L+1).

Assuming that is cumulative with Furious Charge, a 60 man Conscript squad would hit 120 times at S4 with initiative of 5.

That, and a flamer per squad, could really affect the combat Maths above in a very interesting way. The next step would be to add the Book of St NeverRun.

... lol wish i had a copy of that WD ... you know adding a Priest to that unit might also be fun (+1 doctrin point) but the unit can reroll all failled to hits in the turn they charged

Probem being that priests cannot join Conscripts.................

And aren't Conscripts limited to 50 man units?

ah sorry your right can't even borrow them from the witch hunters

Too bad that most tournaments don't allow the abhuman doctrines anymore anyways. For friendly games, go ahead though.

Capt K

Are these rules available someplace other than White Dwarf?

al-Majid Agandhjin bin Ahfal al-Rashid

I have have to say trying to take guard into the close combat arena is probably a defunct strategy from the get go. Im a tread heart at heart and would like nothing else than to be able to find the IG list in 5th edition that shows the greatesat success. I think the way to go with guard in 5th is with 3 LRMBT's or Demolishers and 3 Hellhounds for anti-infantry work, vet squads and PLT HQ's with max melta guns for anti-tank and OBJ contesting/taking. Keep the infantry squads near the tanks to keep opposing melta weapons away from them so they can continue to target enemy infantry formations.