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This might look like an army list thread, but its for having a look at the dramatic disadvantage the Imperial Guard have in Kill Points and trying to formulate ways to suck it up and deal with it.
Either quit whining, quit playing guard until the new codex, quit worrying so much about winning - or help with a bit of tactical list creation.

Goal:
To create some lists with the sole goal of winning Kill Point scenarios. Perhaps by creating the most streamlined lists possible it would be possible to then build back up to having troops to win the others, but this is all about KP.
Pretend its that one game where there are no random dice-rolls and you know in advance you are playing a KP scenario.

Requirements:
Must not rely on Tabling all enemies in all games. Wouldn't that be nice?
Must not rely on 'My Elite Skillzzor' or an opponent who 'Sukkzzors'
Pure IG or legal allies are allowed.

Attempt 1:
11 Kill Points at 1500pts.

This is so trimmed of men its almost an armoured company.
The HQ is a drop melta team. Its obligatory, so might as well have a purpose.
Fast attack has a squadron of Sentinels (1 KP for all 3) and 2 hellhounds
Heavy is maxed tanks (I actually considered 3 Demolishers because those are harder KP to harvest)
Troops are Grenadiers, simply because they dont come with transport or cheap points JOs. One includes a Honorifica, making it harder to kill.
Elites are Vets, in a 10 man squad rather than 5 (harder to kill).

HQ: Command Platoon 2KP
Heroic Senior Officer Plasma Pistol; Power Weapon
4 Guardsmen Drop Troops; Meltagun

Fast Attack: 3KP
3 Sentinel Squadron Extra Armour Lascannon
Hellhound Inferno Cannon; Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter
Hellhound Inferno Cannon; Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter

Heavy 3 KP
Leman Russ - Extra Armour; SL; HBX3; Improved Comms
Leman Russ - Extra Armour; SL; HBX3
Demolisher - SL ; Track Guards Lascannon; Sponson Plasma Cannon

Troops: Grenadiers 2 KP
10 Grenadiers Plasmagun (x2) Veteran Sergeant Plasma Pistol
10 Grenadiers Meltagun (x2) Veteran Sergeant Plasma Pistol
-Veteran Sergeant with Honorifica Imperialis; Plasma Pistol; Power Weapon

Elite: Hardened Veterans 1 KP
10 Veterans, 3 Meltaguns 1 Plasma Pistol

Total Roster Cost: 1499

So come on and play KILL POINT LIMBO: How Low Can You Go?

1500 nurgle (my real list) 9kp
lord
nurgle
termie
claws
150

5 termies
nurgle
champ
claws
250

10 plaque marines x3
2 meltas
chapion fist
icon
rhino
330

pred
auto
heavy bolter
100

1 nob and 6 mobs of 30 boyz with rokkits and PKs (some optionally swapped for smaller squads of stormboyz) gives just 7 KPs

Deathwing:

Belial

Terminator Squad - 5x CFs, Assault Cannon, Apothecary

Terminator Squad - 5x CFs, Assault Cannon

Terminator Squad - 5x CFs, Assault Cannon

Terminator Squad - 4x CFs, Assault Cannon

Terminator Squad - 4x CFs, Assault Cannon

Total: 1500


6 KPs for the win.

Natedogg beat me to the basic list, although I thought HQ's were worth 2 KP?

HQs are worth 1 KP. If they have a retinue then they are worth another KP.

Mega-armor spam:
Megarmored Warboss @ 100 pts
Megarmored Warboss @ 100 pts
10 Megarmored Nobz @ 400 pts

10 Megarmored Nobz w/ Rokkits @ 450 pts
10 Megarmored Nobz w/ Rokkits @ 450 pts

1500 pts, 5 kp


Eldar:
Farseer w/ Jetbike, the works @ 225 pts

10 Warlocks w/ Jetbikes, 9 w/ destructor, 1 w/ Enchance @ 555 pts

12 Guardian Jetbikes w/ 4 Shuricannons + Warlock w/ Destructor @ 359 pts
12 Guardian Jetbikes w/ 4 Shuricannons + Warlock w/ Destructor @ 359 pts

1498 pts, 4 kp

Edit #500:
If this thread is about IG then you could try attaching a bunch of SOB and GK to keep KP down.
You can get IG down to 5 KP. It just involves 20 Grey Knight Terminators.

Wow, that eldar list is snazzy, if rather ineffective. Although that warlock jetbike squad is sure to make an opponent sweat a fair amount thats for sure.

If I had money to burn I'd definitely try the Eldar list. 9 heavy flamers from one unit coming down on 30 man ork mobs sounds awesome.

The army would be better if you dropped a bunch of the troops and got a 2nd seer council.

I could be wrong, but I believe the goal of the op was to see how low you could go with an IG army, as they are the faction who struggles the most with the Kill Point rule.

yakface wrote:I could be wrong, but I believe the goal of the op was to see how low you could go with an IG army, as they are the faction who struggles the most with the Kill Point rule.

I think Yak is right. Thats what we get for not reading the whole post.

Matt-ShadowLord wrote:This might look like an army list thread, but its for having a look at the dramatic disadvantage the Imperial Guard have in Kill Points and trying to formulate ways to suck it up and deal with it.
Either quit whining, quit playing guard until the new codex, quit worrying so much about winning - or help with a bit of tactical list creation.

Goal:
To create some lists with the sole goal of winning Kill Point scenarios. Perhaps by creating the most streamlined lists possible it would be possible to then build back up to having troops to win the others, but this is all about KP.
Pretend its that one game where there are no random dice-rolls and you know in advance you are playing a KP scenario.

Requirements:
Must not rely on Tabling all enemies in all games. Wouldn't that be nice?
Must not rely on 'My Elite Skillzzor' or an opponent who 'Sukkzzors'
Pure IG or legal allies are allowed.

Last Chancers @ 475
Schaeffer
Kage
5 Last Chancers with Heavy Bolters
1 Last Chancer with Demo Charge
5 Last Chancers with Flamers
9 Regular Last Chancers
3-7 KP

3 Demolishers, lascannon, Multimeltas @ 195 each
3 Hellhounds @ 115 each
5 Hardened Veterans, 2 meltagun 1flamer @ 91pts
Total: 1497

So the last chancers can be one squad worth 3 KP if required but in a mission where you need scoring units they can break up into 5 scoring units (assuming they actually function as troops and dont just use up the FOC slots). So overall 10-14 KPs your choice.

Matt, to minimise kill points all we can and need do is take Grenadiers doctrine and sink as mank points into vehicles as possible.

All answers will be a variant of this. The only way to cut further is to include Forgeworld stuff.

You allow allies, so add a superheavy detachment and KP are no longer a problem.

My submission:

Command platoon, 4 grenade launcher
Mortar squad
Mortar squad

DH Inquisitor Lord, 3 x mystic, Hood
Landraider, smoke

DH Inquisitor, 1 familiar
Landraider, smoke

8 x Grenadiers, 2 grenade launcher
8 x Grenadiers, 2 grenade launcher

Russ, 3 x heavy bolter, smoke
Russ, 3 x heavy bolter, smoke
Basilisk, indirect, armored compartment

The list is 12 KPs total, but as you can probably guess - the armor 14s make a semi-circle wall for all of the indirect fire weaponry to hide behind on the board edge. As such, only 4 KPs should be readily available to your opponent. The opponent will not get to fire on a squishy unit unless he has indirect fire as well, or destroys a Wall segment with a penetrating 6.

You wont table anyone, but I'd be surprised if someone without indirect could out KP you.

I could be wrong, but I believe the goal of the op was to see how low you could go with an IG army, as they are the faction who struggles the most with the Kill Point rule.

You're correct, Yakface, but its actually been instructional to see what the competition is like.

I thought I'd done well to get mine down to 11 KP at 1500pts, but compared to the Eldar list MarvinGaye posted at a mere 4 ... there is some work to be done!

ptlangley wrote:Last Chancers @ 475
Schaeffer
Kage
5 Last Chancers with Heavy Bolters
1 Last Chancer with Demo Charge
5 Last Chancers with Flamers
9 Regular Last Chancers
3-7 KP

3 Demolishers, lascannon, Multimeltas @ 195 each
3 Hellhounds @ 115 each
5 Hardened Veterans, 2 meltagun 1flamer @ 91pts
Total: 1497

So the last chancers can be one squad worth 3 KP if required but in a mission where you need scoring units they can break up into 5 scoring units (assuming they actually function as troops and dont just use up the FOC slots). So overall 10-14 KPs your choice.

Need to add the HQ Platoon to make it a legal list..................Replace the Hardened Vets and you're good to go, but one more KP due to the IC.

For lowest KP possible, just start pulling in DH Terminators 500 pts a pop. The problem here is that your IG KPs will be easy to reap, and the termies will likely just be ignored.

Conscripts?

don_mondo wrote:Need to add the HQ Platoon to make it a legal list..................Replace the Hardened Vets and you're good to go, but one more KP due to the IC.

Why doesn't Schaeffer count as an HQ?

Schaeffer, plus Chimera with Multi-Laser and Heavy Bolter - 160 points (2 KPs)
Kage, plus Chimera with Multi-laser and Heavy Bolter - 120 points (2 KPs)
20 Last Chancers each a specialist armed with Master-Crafted Power-Fist, each a Psyker - 1220 points (1 KP)

Okay, there. Imperial Guard list, 5 Kill Points...

I WIN.

Goal:
To create some lists with the sole goal of winning Kill Point scenarios. Perhaps by creating the most streamlined lists possible it would be possible to then build back up to having troops to win the others, but this is all about KP.
Pretend its that one game where there are no random dice-rolls and you know in advance you are playing a KP scenario.

Are you sure that trying to minimize total Kill Points in your army really the best way to accomplish this? Since you've stated that you don't expect to table your opponent, and you obviously can't win if you get tabled yourself, it seems like the total number of Kill Points available to your enemy is less significant your ability to protect those Kill Points while earning his. I don't have a codex with me at the moment, so I can't provide a list, but I do have some suggestions.

I think the original poster had the right idea about maximizing the use of heavy tanks. What other IG units can be expected to earn at least as many Kill Points as they give up on average? Identify these, and they'll make up the core of your army that you actually want to fight with in Kill Points missions. My guess is that Hellhounds would be nice for troop-heavy enemy armies, and tank-hunting sentinels for enemies with lots of transports. Inquisitors could be used to give you extra heavy tanks (albeit expensive ones, and with the new problem of having to protect the Inquisitor and his retinue).

As for the mandated troops, or any you include for handling objective missions, it seems like you need to think in terms of force protection instead of damage dealing, since guardsmen tend to deal damage only while dying in large numbers. Here are some ideas:

1. Even if your army contains lots of kill points, you might be able to restrict the rate at which your opponent can "harvest" them by keeping them in reserve as long as possible, then deploying them into inaccessible positions (far away from the enemy's main force, hidden behind terrain, etc). You might want to look over JamesBlake's thread on Drop Troops, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/216553.page. This concept should also be applied to vehicles that aren't good for the kind of enemies you're facing (keep HellHounds away from the fight if they don't have good infantry targets to go after.

2. You probably shouldn't create any sacrificial drop squads unless they have a strong chance of earning back the Kill Points they will almost inevitably give up. Veterans or stormtroopers with meltas might be viable, as they'd target vehicles for a 1:1 trade. Grenadiers equipped this way could be scoring in regular games. Command squads wouldn't work so well, since they'd need to earn two points before going down.

3. It might be worthwhile to mount your soft high-Kill-Point units, like command squads, in vehicles. Chimeras are the obvious choice, but you can also potentially "borrow" allied forces' Rhinos, or even Land Raiders. The transport offers an extra target, but your opponent has to destroy it before he can go after the weak, Kill-Point heavy unit inside, and it makes it easier to move the squad out of harm's way. Smoke launchers would be a good idea. Track guards might also be worthwhile, since you're more concerned with evading danger than engaging it. Units like this could make good "bait", intended to keep your opponent chasing after a concentrated source of Kill Points instead of going after the easiest targets.

4. Cameleoline seems like a good way to increase the resources your opponent has to expend for each Kill Point he wants to earn.

Moz wrote:My submission:

Command platoon, 4 grenade launcher
Mortar squad
Mortar squad

DH Inquisitor Lord, 3 x mystic, Hood
Landraider, smoke

DH Inquisitor, 1 familiar
Landraider, smoke

8 x Grenadiers, 2 grenade launcher
8 x Grenadiers, 2 grenade launcher

Russ, 3 x heavy bolter, smoke
Russ, 3 x heavy bolter, smoke
Basilisk, indirect, armored compartment

The list is 12 KPs total, but as you can probably guess - the armor 14s make a semi-circle wall for all of the indirect fire weaponry to hide behind on the board edge. As such, only 4 KPs should be readily available to your opponent. The opponent will not get to fire on a squishy unit unless he has indirect fire as well, or destroys a Wall segment with a penetrating 6.

You wont table anyone, but I'd be surprised if someone without indirect could out KP you.

Sorry to say but the KPs is incorrect. It should be 15 KPs not 12. The 3 tanks and 2 Grenadier squads are 5KP, The command platoon is 2 KP because the IC and retinue are worth 2 KPs. The Inquisitor Lord and squad with transport are worth 3 KP. finally the Inquisitor and squad with transport are worth 3 KP again because IC, retinue and transport are worth 1 KP each.

For guard i think taking sisters of battle might be a good idea however i dont know if minimising KP is the way to go. I think you would be better of trying to gain more KPs than the enemy or wipe out the other army because you would win then regardless of KPs lost.

Since the OP has posted there happy to see other armies KPs and builds, i run the following at 1500pts:

Brother Captain, Psychic Hood, Combat Shield, 3 GKT (1 with TH, SS) 2KP 229

Squad Alpha
Grey Knights (9) including Justicar with frag and Targeter 1KP 252

Squad Beta
Grey Knights (9) including Justicar with frag and Targeter 1KP 252

Squad Gamma
Grey Knights (9) including Justicar with frag and Targeter 1KP 252

Squad Delta
Grey Knights (9) including Justicar with frag and Targeter 1KP 252

Land Raider, EA, DB, Smoke 1KP 263

Total 1500 (40M. 1V) 7KP

don_mondo wrote:Need to add the HQ Platoon to make it a legal list..................Replace the Hardened Vets and you're good to go, but one more KP due to the IC.

Yeah I guess there is no option on the Command Platoon since it says 1 instead of 0-1 or nothing. Bummer because that is at least +2 KP. Oh well. Pretty much everything in the IG list drives you away from an effective KP total.

MinMax wrote:Schaeffer, plus Chimera with Multi-Laser and Heavy Bolter - 160 points (2 KPs)
Kage, plus Chimera with Multi-laser and Heavy Bolter - 120 points (2 KPs)
20 Last Chancers each a specialist armed with Master-Crafted Power-Fist, each a Psyker - 1220 points (1 KP)

Okay, there. Imperial Guard list, 5 Kill Points...

I WIN.

The Last Chancers are limited to 15 points of wargear from the armory each but they can all be Psykers so 20 of them only get you a max of 620 points. Carapace armor, storm bolters and power weapons... They would be like crappy reject grey knight terminators.

4KP list

H.Q.
Salamander Command Tank 100pts (1 KP)

Troops
7 Grenadier Squad 70pts (1KP)
8 Grenadier Squad 80pts (1KP)

Super-Heavy Attachment
Reaver Titan 1250pts (1KP)

HQ

KHARN!! 165

Troops

20 Khorne Berzerkers, champ w/PW Personal Icon 455
20 Khorne Berzerkers, champ w/ PW Personal Icon 455

Elites 625

10 terminators, Icon of Nurgle, 10 Powerfists, 2 reaper autocannos, 10 combi plasmas, 10 champions.

1700 points, 4 KP

Well, I guess necrons take the cake in terms of having the toughest, hardiest KPs around, although they can't quite reach the 4 KP threshold that the eldar can.

HQ:
Lord with nothing 1KP

Troops:

20 Warriors 1KP
18 Warriors (insert lord here) 1KP

Heavy support:

Monolith 1KP
Monolith 1KP
Monolith 1KP

Total: 1489 pts

6 KP in total
3 AV 14 all around skimmers
2 large squads with T4 AV 3+ WBB 4+ and another WBB 4+, meaning that the only thing to fear are vindicators.
The entire army can also start in reserve, so if you know you're going second, that's one less turn of fire coming your way.

EDIT: I suppose you could drop two warriors and give the lord a resurrection orb to further protect yourself from those vindicators. KPs remain the same, but the army is considerably tougher....

Orlanth wrote:4KP list

H.Q.
Salamander Command Tank 100pts (1 KP)

Troops
7 Grenadier Squad 70pts (1KP)
8 Grenadier Squad 80pts (1KP)

Super-Heavy Attachment
Reaver Titan 1250pts (1KP)

Lol. Orlanth wins for IG.

@ptlangley when I read the MC P.Fist Psyker list, I thought nothing of it. But your comment made me think. I've often wanted to get Power Fists on Last chancers just for the sheer joy of 20+ powerfists. The rules on pg 35 of the IG codex under Master Craft read. "... but only the upgrade cost is taken against the points limit on wargeat taken by a model(so a mstar-crafted power weapon costs [X] points but it counts as [X-cost of powerweapon]points against a character's Wargear limit).

Anyway, so this crazy low kill point list is indeed legal, and opens the door to something I never thought possible.

Sad times, After that I reread Schaffers Entry which state, Last Chancers may not MC their weapons. So, I guess we're back to reject grey knights.

ptlangley wrote:The Last Chancers are limited to 15 points of wargear from the armory each but they can all be Psykers so 20 of them only get you a max of 620 points. Carapace armor, storm bolters and power weapons... They would be like crappy reject grey knight terminators.

Actually - a Master-Crafted weapon only counts as 15 points from the Armoury. Thus, a Last Chancer cannot take a 25 point Power Fist, but he can take a 15 (40) point Master-Crafted Power Fist.

Datajax wrote:Sad times, After that I reread Schaffers Entry which state, Last Chancers may not MC their weapons. So, I guess we're back to reject grey knights.

Actually, it specifies that weapons "chosen from the list below" cannot be Master-Crafted. It doesn't say that weapons chosen from the Armoury can't be Master-Crafted.