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HQ

Eldrad 210

Yriel 155

10 Warlocks 305
2 Embolden 1 Enhance, 3 Destructor

Wave Serpent 110
TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

HQ Total 780

Elite

6 Fire Dragons 96
Wave Serpent 110
TL Shuriken cannon, Spirit Stones


Elites Total 206

Troops

10 Dire Avengers 120
Wave Serpent 125
TL Scatter Laser, Spirit Stones

10 Dire Avengers 120
Wave Serpent 125
TL Scatter Laser, Spirit Stones

10 Dire Avengers 120
Wave Serpent 125
TL Scatter Laser, Spirit Stones

10 Storm Guardians 92
2 Flamer
Wave Serpent 110
TL Shuriken cannon, Spirit Stones

10 Storm Guardians 92
2 Flamer
Wave Serpent 110
TL Shuriken cannon, Spirit Stones

Troops Total 1139

Heavy Support
Fire Prism 125
Spirit stones

Fire Prism 125
Spirit stones

Fire Prism 125
Spirit stones

Heavy Support Total 375

Total 2500 points


HQ
Eldrad - provides fortune for the wave serpent and for the seer council. Can also cast doom on another squad that can get shot up by Dire Avengers and Storm Guardians. He also has 3 Power weapon attacks on the charge that wound on a 2+ not to shabby.

Yriel - the eye is just nasty and his power weapon attacks help out the seer council alot. Also gives +1 to reserve rolls if I have to put things in reserve.

10 Warlock Seer Concil - very durable unit with a rerollable 4+ invulnerable save. 30 attacks on the charge wounding on a 2+ are pretty good too. Embolden to be able to reroll leadership and psychic tests and enhance for improved weapon skill and iniative and destructors for burning squads in cover you don't want to assault because you have no grenades. Destructors are also good for burninating bugs hiding behind MCs and squads behind a tank you are going to assault.

Seer council is mounted in a Wave Serpent is kept cheap with Spirit Stones to keep moving and Shuriken cannon for a cheap weapon.

Elites
Fire Dragons - are for melting tanks specifically Land Raiders.
The Fire Dragon's Wave Serpent is kept cheap with Spirit Stones to keep moving and Shuriken cannon for a cheap weapon.

Troops
Dire Avengers - Basic Squad of 10 for capturing objectives puts out decent firepower of 2 shots at 18 inches. Exarch and Bladestorm are a bit expensive at 42 points and you can't shoot next turn so are left out.
The Dire Avenger Wave Serpents get a scatter laser because they will not be as close to the action.

Storm Guardians - Dual flamer squads for burninating cowards who hide in cover. The 35 point warlock with destructor for a heavy flamer does not seem worth the points given had to fit in the expensive seer council and all the tanks.

Heavy Support
Fire Prisms - Provide long range anti tank and large templates for killing hordes. Seem to bounce off small tanks like Rhinos but still decent against Monolith's and Land Raiders. Spirit Stones for tank shocking or ramming if the Prism cannon is lost.

Works pretty good in the test games I had so far. Did manage a win against the usual Chaos lash and oblit list but Does struggle against the Land Raider lists with the scattering of Fire Prisms and only one unit of Dragons, the Seer Council kills tanks well but then it is not dealing with other threats. Also managed to win against Nids killing all their troops wasn't too much of a problem an d the Seer Council just ate monsterous creatures. Some guy forgot to buy without number. Lost to the Grey Knight Land Raider list. Psycannons + Terminators took out the Seer Council and I just gave up too much KP versus his really hard to get KP from his land raiders which he stayed inside for the most part.

Not really sure if I want to go with this list or nids. Would have to make some mods to my serpent sand buy some more models to actually play this list been testing wtih proxies or on vassal.

I would say to downsize the HQ and put it in a Falcon. I'm normally not an advocate of taking <3 Prisms in a single FOC game, but here, you really have to. Give the Falcon holo-fields, and that will almost guarantee that your council makes it where it needs to be.

I've also found that Eldrad is sort of overkill for a simple pop out/Destroyer technique. You really only need a Farseer with Doom and Fortune to get the job done. Eldrad is better for a static shooting list, or something foot-like.

Also, you a desperately in need of long ranged anti-tank here. You have three prisms, and little else. that will not get you through 2500 points of enemy armor. You NEED some more Bright Lances, and believe it or not, the Serpents are the best place for them. They can move 12" and fire them, and are twin-linked. Basically like firing at BS4.5. If you put one on every Serpent (which you should), you'll have absolutely no problem with enemy armor/MCs.

Your anti-infantry is comprised of your squads, not your tanks. You could go either way with the squads that go in them, but the way you have them, the DAs are a waste of points. give them an exarch, or they're not really worth it. Give the Storm Guardians a Lock with Destructor, or they're hardly worth it. Give the Dragons an Exarch with a Flamer and Crack Shot. That makes them more worth it.

Overall, I think you focused on bulk where you shouldn't have, and focused on quality almost nowhere. No Holo-fields, no Bright Lances, no Exarches, and there's only Locks in the council. Needs some moving around, but it has potential.

You need BL on serpents to kill enemy tanks.

You need destructor locks in storm guardian squads.

If you bring BL, you don't need Fire Dragons as much.

Read my Eldar Army Analysis in the Articles section for a little more guidance.

Seer council is mounted in a Wave Serpent is kept cheap with Spirit Stones to keep moving and Shuriken cannon for a cheap weapon.

The Council is really tough to beat. Give the Serpent vectored engines as you want to move at full speed towards the enemy.

I would say to downsize the HQ and put it in a Falcon.

A small Council is not nearly as effective as the large one.

I've also found that Eldrad is sort of overkill for a simple pop out/Destroyer technique.

No. If you field such an expensive unit, you need to keep it alive and so the possibility to cast blocked fortune a 2nd time is priceless.

Thanks for the advice.

HQ

Eldrad 210

Yriel 155

10 Warlocks 295
2 Embolden 1 Enhance, 3 Destructor

Wave Serpent 130
TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines

HQ Total 800



Troops

10 Dire Avengers 120
Wave Serpent 145
TL Bright Lance, Spirit Stones

10 Dire Avengers 120
Wave Serpent 145
TL Bright Lance, Spirit Stones

10 Dire Avengers 120
Wave Serpent 145
TL Bright Lance, Spirit Stones

10 Storm Guardians 130
2 Flamer, Warlock, Destructor, Shining Spear
Wave Serpent 145
TL Bright Lance, Spirit Stones

10 Storm Guardians 130
2 Flamer, Warlock, Destructor, Shining Spear
Wave Serpent 125
TL Scatter Laser, Spirit Stones

Troops Total 1325

Heavy Support
Fire Prism 125
Spirit stones

Fire Prism 125
Spirit stones

Fire Prism 125
Spirit stones

Heavy Support Total 375

Total 2500 points

How about this?

Dropped the Fire Dragons and their serpent for Brightlances on 4 of the troop serpents, Warlocks for the Storm Guardian Squads and Vectored Engines for the Seer Council's Wave Serpent.

I think dropping the Dragons is the best option otherwise I have to lose a scoring unit. What do you think?


I don't see the Dragon's Breath Flamer as being worth the points. It is good against Tyranids if there are Gaunts or Genestealers by the Monsterous Creature you are trying to shoot with the Dragons but in most cases you lose a melta shot against a tank you want to melt. Dropping the Fire Dragons anyway.

I don't see the Dire Avenger Exarchs with Bladestorm they cost about as much as a Bright Lance for a Wave Serpent and you can't shoot next turn if you use blade storm which is fine if you want to get in your wave serpent to relocate but if not you give up a turn of shooting for 10 extra shots during the previous turn.

wuestenfux wrote:

I would say to downsize the HQ and put it in a Falcon.

A small Council is not nearly as effective as the large one.

Maybe not nearly as effective, but a great deal cheaper, and more survivable with the Falcon. The thing about large units are that you don't need the extra 4 or 5 Warlocks in the unit as much as you want to make sure the unit gets where it needs to be.

I disagree.
10 warlocks will take minor damage on the way to battle, say 2 die, and throw out 16 attacks netting 8 wounds (3 dead marines)

5 warlocks will take less damage (not charging out of falcon) say 1 dies, throw out 8 attacks and cause 4 wounds (1 dead marine).

The 10 warlocks can reliably kill things, the 5 are simply a tarpit. You need the quantity of attacks to back up the unkillability or you will spend all game fighting a single marine squad

cypher wrote:I disagree.
10 warlocks will take minor damage on the way to battle, say 2 die, and throw out 16 attacks netting 8 wounds (3 dead marines)

5 warlocks will take less damage (not charging out of falcon) say 1 dies, throw out 8 attacks and cause 4 wounds (1 dead marine).

The 10 warlocks can reliably kill things, the 5 are simply a tarpit. You need the quantity of attacks to back up the unkillability or you will spend all game fighting a single marine squad

With Yriel, you won't have that problem. You can massacre everything and keep your own locks near impervious. What you don't need is 150 points of Warlocks, increasing your chance of a dead henchman when (and he will) Yriel decides to activate his eye. You'll never really need more than 2-4 Destructors in a squad, and 10 Warlocks don't really give you an edge on that. Regardless, an Enhanced, Guided Warlock puts out 2 attacks base that hit most things on 3s with re-rolls, and wound everything on 2s, at I5. On the charge, that's 3 attacks. They'll have no problem wiping out lightly armored (4, 5, 6+) opponents (that they'll also fry with their Destructors), and have little problem wiping out MEQs (who will also get fried by Destructor).

All in all, what you're looking for the squad to do is pop out, Destructor whatever it sees, and then shrug off a ridiculous amount of combat and firepower the coming enemy turn (which will be inevitably thinned by the rest of your own army). It can do that and more, and the only thing it gets from 4-5 extra guys is a lot of dead weight and the inability to be transported safely across the board by something like a Falcon. The essential thing is not to make sure that you have ridunkulously large amounts of Locks to hit the enemy with, but to be sure that you get close enough to hit the enemy in the first place.

That being said, I really don't think you need the Vectored Engines on the Command vehicle, regardless of what vehicle it is. You don't want to outpace your main army, or you'll get stranded.

Foot councils are crap.

Don't run them.

If you can put up real tactics not avoided by everyone and the numbers to back it up, please do.

I will not hold my breath waiting.

Burning Star IV wrote:

cypher wrote:I disagree.
10 warlocks will take minor damage on the way to battle, say 2 die, and throw out 16 attacks netting 8 wounds (3 dead marines)

5 warlocks will take less damage (not charging out of falcon) say 1 dies, throw out 8 attacks and cause 4 wounds (1 dead marine).

The 10 warlocks can reliably kill things, the 5 are simply a tarpit. You need the quantity of attacks to back up the unkillability or you will spend all game fighting a single marine squad

With Yriel, you won't have that problem. You can massacre everything and keep your own locks near impervious. What you don't need is 150 points of Warlocks, increasing your chance of a dead henchman when (and he will) Yriel decides to activate his eye. You'll never really need more than 2-4 Destructors in a squad, and 10 Warlocks don't really give you an edge on that. Regardless, an Enhanced, Guided Warlock puts out 2 attacks base that hit most things on 3s with re-rolls, and wound everything on 2s, at I5. On the charge, that's 3 attacks. They'll have no problem wiping out lightly armored (4, 5, 6+) opponents (that they'll also fry with their Destructors), and have little problem wiping out MEQs (who will also get fried by Destructor).

All in all, what you're looking for the squad to do is pop out, Destructor whatever it sees, and then shrug off a ridiculous amount of combat and firepower the coming enemy turn (which will be inevitably thinned by the rest of your own army). It can do that and more, and the only thing it gets from 4-5 extra guys is a lot of dead weight and the inability to be transported safely across the board by something like a Falcon. The essential thing is not to make sure that you have ridunkulously large amounts of Locks to hit the enemy with, but to be sure that you get close enough to hit the enemy in the first place.

That being said, I really don't think you need the Vectored Engines on the Command vehicle, regardless of what vehicle it is. You don't want to outpace your main army, or you'll get stranded.

Not quite sure you understand the eldar codex that well, no offense, or possibly you're new to the army/haven't read it thoroughly.

1) Guide is only for shooting attacks, you cant guide your close combat attacks.
2) You'll hit most non-CC specialist units on 3's, the CC specialists you'll hit on 4's typically.
3) The point of the squad isnt built to be a pop out destructor combo, if it was it would just be a storm guardian squad with 2 flamers and a warlock with destructor. The squad is made to get out, never die, and get stuck into combats with the nasty things the enemy has, shredding them. Thats why Yriel is even there, for his power weapon against heavily armored opponents. The destructors are more (imo) there as a backup in case you run into say, a 30 boy squad, in order to thin it out before the charge.

My basic tactic with that HQ: Use Eldrad to fortune his wave serpent since psychic powers that don't need LOS can be cast from inside vehicles (this is 5th edition, not 4th, units don't count as being off the table anymore as the old PDF for 4th said). Then move 24 inches straight into wherever you want, with a 4+ rerollable cover save on the vehicle. Second turn, get out, reak havoc, be able to charge.

4) Vectored engines don't allow you to move faster, you're thinking of star engines. Vectored engines help it from dying to immobilized results, not move faster, as such it won't affect outpacing the army.

Unless you're moving over 12", VE don't mean much in this edition.

The outpacing thing is a legitimate concern, though. But sometimes, you're just going to have to do it. The mobility is worth the 20 points for your prime countercharge unit, should the unexpected occur (and at some point it always does).

Funny, I was planning to run a list much like this one, but with more bling (DA exarchs, Harlies, Spears). It cost me one unit less (I had only one Storm Guard unit where you have two), but I value the staying power of Defend/PW/SS DAs more than another Storm Guard squad. More importantly, you have made me reevaluate my countercharge squads. I think I'll be trying out a Council for effect this next week. Thanks!

But I do think the bling is worth it in some cases. Your list is lean and mean, but maybe a bit too lean. Consider dumping one Storm squad to augment other bits.

I'm gonna go ahead and go with Stelek here. Just throwing my hat in supporting what he's said as generally good advice. Glad to see someone else likes my avatar too.

Well, the foot council trades in some durability (T4, 3+) for some seriously improved close-combat ability. Bike councils have a hard time getting through those tougher units, like TMCs and Plague Marines, while the foot council, with Eldrad and Yriel, can shred such targets with impunity. They're not quite as mobile overall as the bike council, but don't have to worry about problems with Fortune and turboboosting. The Serpent still gives them enough mobility to usually get where it needs to go, and Eldrad gives you the opportunity to Fortune twice, which is crucial for Serpent/Council fortuning, or if the opponent has a psychic hood. Plus, the two characters can split off if needed - Yriel is often able to take on whole squads by himself.

Again, they aren't quite as tough as the bike council, and should your opponent have psycannons (which is mostly unlikely) they're in for a pounding. Still, a rerollable 4++ is nothing to sneeze at. Plus, in the foot council Eldrad can suck up a few of those stronger hits that would otherwise kill a warlock or Yriel outright, and he does have a 3++.

Obviously, the goal will be to go for a key unit in your opponent's army, and avoid small tie-up units at all costs, at least in your turn. If the key unit is on the flank, so much the better - that's a quickly rolled flank. The vectored engines are there so the Serpent can move quickly, get that 4+ cover save (fortuned), and not worry even if something gets through.

There are of course ways to counter this uber-unit, but not every army has an equally easy time doing so. Moving away from it might help for a time (since with Eldrad there's no Fleet), but they can't run forever. You can throw sacrificial squads at it to buy time and shoot it, but again rerolled 4++ is pretty decent. You can block the exit hatch, if you're fast enough and have skimmers, but not every army can do this. Meanwhile, while your opponent is worried about this uber-squad, you have several other units that can more or less go about as they please.

Sadly, the best counter to the foot council is simply dropping rapid fire units into it.

It's easily crippled.

Seer Council does not need Yriel or Eldrad, and Eldrad does not have fleet.

I've yet to see a TMC list stand up to 2 seer councils. If anything, the TMC and PM both have much to fear from being wounded on 2+, which negates their greatest asset (their toughness) entirely.

tzeentchling wrote:Well, the foot council trades in some durability (T4, 3+) for some seriously improved close-combat ability. Bike councils have a hard time getting through those tougher units, like TMCs and Plague Marines, while the foot council, with Eldrad and Yriel, can shred such targets with impunity.

How are Non-bike councils better than bike councils in CC? The Bikes give them much needed toughness and a better save making them less vulnerable to volume of fire attacks. The addition of Eldrad or Yriel seriously limits their resiliance and mobility by tying them to a lower capability level that comes with being T3 4++. Honestly the addition of a Pair of power weapon equiped characters shouldn't make a large enough difference to a properly kitted out Council to compensate for the lost resilience.

Stelek wrote:Foot councils are crap.

Don't run them.

If you can put up real tactics not avoided by everyone and the numbers to back it up, please do.

I will not hold my breath waiting.

BINGO, seconded. Puting them in a tank of some sort, also a bad idea, in a falcon, it is another 100+ points you dont need, and the squad is to small! Plus getting to a target, in CC range with the new melee rules, not good. Jetbikes WAY BETTER, way more durable with a rerollable 3/4I save than any other unit in the game.

tzeentchling wrote:There are of course ways to counter this uber-unit, but not every army has an equally easy time doing so. Moving away from it might help for a time (since with Eldrad there's no Fleet), but they can't run forever...

Uh, which is why they need jetbikes to be faster, so that they can't be moved away from!

Also how would a jetbike seer council have any more trouble against plague marines or TMCs than the foot guys? They are tougher with a better save? The points spent on a serpent for foot guys are way better spent on jetbikes, toughness and save aside they also all get a twinlinked SC, which at the range they fight at is actually really good (and a lot better than foot guys)!

???

Trying to say that a foot council compares to a jetbike council in any way is like comparing an ant to an elephant. Everything the foot council does the bike council does about twice as well. Everyone has pretty much expounded on the basic concept but here it is again for the home audience just tuning in:

Faster, Tougher, Better Save, Better basic weapon (bike mounted) for pre-melee blasting.

Well, with Yriel's ability (and Eldrad, a bit) to pretty much murder ICs, PMs, anything with a 2+ save that the regular council will struggle to wound. They hit at really high initiatives, so can usually cripple a squad before the warlocks even strike. Yriel can split off and take on squads by himself. Eldrad has the ability to cast multiple powers, including Fortune twice, which helps against RoWard and Psychic Hoods. But I've already pointed out all this.

The bike council, if at full strength, can definitely hit hard, I won't argue this. However, they do have a tough time getting through lots of 2+ saves, those 3+/4+FNP PMs, and so on. Also, keep in mind that the bike council cannot, according to most interpretations, cast Fortune and turboboost, which is an issue in terms of speed. If the bike council's Fortune fails to go off, they're in trouble - Eldrad can try again if it fails the first time. These two issues alone can be enough to make me hesitate on bike councils. Plus, it's a lot harder to hide the large footprint of a bike council.

True, the TL shuriken catapult is moderately better than the shuriken pistols, but realistically against most units they're still not going to do very much.

You all make good points about the bike council, and I acknowledge them. The ability to move 12+6" every turn is quite nice, and gives them good mobility. The added toughness and save is very important for overall durability. It's certainly easier, in some ways, to play with the bike council. But foot councils can still wreck just about any unit they attack, and will carve through even the toughest units out there - I don't think anyone will argue that the bike council hits harder than the foot council. Eldrad gives you the ability to fling multiple powers, Yriel gives you serious close combat potential (even more than the warlocks), and of course is an autarch so you get that nice bonus to reserves.

Well I think the main reason the bike council would be considered superior to the foot council, especially in a Ard Boyz environment, is that you can have two of them compared to a single Yriel/Eldrad Council. Redundancy is a big advantage. You can be in two places at once for example. The wave serpent mounted council above can only be at one location on any given turn and against a mobile enemy will have to mount back up to go somewhere again. Not to mention the ability to have two means that if your dice fail you, you still have a second council to fall back on.

Main worry with a foot council = stunned or buggered Wave Serpent... you're not going anywhere fast and just became a points smorgasboard.

Jetbikes dont have to worry about the embark/disembark issue and can fire then assault ALL the time rather than jump out, fire and stand there doing a merry dance (plus the bikes can hide afterwards... try that on foot with less survivability). Hell if Eldrad is so important, wack the bugger in a serpent with some Dire Avengers suited for tarpiting / mass shuriken fire, keep the Serpent with the Jet-council and let fly with 3x Fortune attempts or doom a couple of units... go nuts.

Thanks for all the advice.

I have been finding the foot council has been rather lackluster. The 8 charge range out of the Serpent is somewhat of a problem as some of the opponents have just backed up a bit outside of assault and destructor range and then the council would have to take alot of fire and sometimes bad rolling would reduce their numbers quite a bit. However when they do get into combat they really kick ass and the Eye is just devastating. Eldrad's 3 powers and ability to reattempt fortune if it is blocked is really good though.

The Jetbike council I found is not as nasty in combat as the foot council. the Jetbike Autarach has only str 3 power weapon attacks versus the str 9 wound on a 2 power weapon attacks of Eldrad and Yriel and there is Yriel's eye.

I'm thinking I might swap the foot council for a bike council and see how that runs. I did run a small bike council of farseer with 4-6 locks and sometimes an autarach at 1750-1850 points in 4th and it was pretty darn effective with Harly back up. Going two jetbike councils has issues pointwise and issues converting more locks since it is pretty annoying to chop warlocks in half and put them on jetbikes. If you have two jetbike councils you don't have much left for troops so not sure about going with this choice.

Stunned wave serpent is not a problem with Spirit stones and you either hide the Serpent or zoom onto the board going 24 inches so you are near where you want to go before you get shot down.

That actually might not be a bad idea to have a jetbike council and then put Eldrad in with some dire avengers who have defend and shimershield.

Bike Autarchs add little if anything to Bike Councils. I've never run one instead of just using the points to max the locks in your Bike Council.

Generally, a Seer Council is the best anvil unit in the game. But its not a hammer unit. It becomes a hammer unit with Eldrad and Yriel; or a semi-hammer unit if on jetbikes and an Autarch with lance is added.

Both Councils, on foot with Eldrad and Yriel, or on jetbikes with an Autarch, are good choices. Its a trade-off what Council to choose.

As people start taking more and more 'numbers' over 'expensive' models, I think you'll find the Seer Council will become a hammer unit.

I agree that the bike council is by far superior. Faster, more resiliant, able to redeploy fast. The issue is the cost what 230 points to bike it all up versus. What you have to answer for yourself is whether you need about 100 points that serves a more valuable purpose for your eldar.

I used a totally on foot council in 1st rnd of hardboyz and it did me fine. Killing Abaddon and retinue in one, preserving the rest of my on foot eldar in a demon battle and getting the only KPs I earned in that round and finally eliminated a librarian in terminator armor with a termie command squad and two full tactical squads.

It does work but it has major weaknesses over the biker council. You better be able to identify what needs killing fast because in 5 turns you are not going to be able to redeploy and have it killing things which either one should be doing no matter what. Giving it a wave serpent gets rid of this problem. The other and probably biggest weakness is losing the 3+ standard armor of the bike. In the third game, I did kill the libarian and his retinue also took out two full tac squads with it... all fine and dandy. The problem was he had an allied unit of grey knight termies with their special heavy flamer that eliminates invulnerable saves. They dominated the game for me and got 5 of the 11 kill points I earned in that game but died and almost cost me the win. Had the unit been a biker council I would have thanked him for the flame bath and chewed him up.

If you look at it, is an extra Wave Serpent giving you something special that you feel you need? If not, max out the council and put them on bikes and you will not be disappointed. If you have any points left, holo up the fire prisms.

BTW, it IS a hammer unit that is also an anvil. It is not a sledge hammer though, it will eat through just about anything but not as fast as say a 10 man termie squad in HTH but I will almost put my bet on the council giving as good as it gets if the fortune remains intact against the best close combat units in the game. (It had better do that for all the points you put into it.)