Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If a Black Templars chaplain with cenobyte servitors joined a squad,and the whole unit engaged with enemy in CC.

Then,could the Cenobyte Servitors be count as the retinue of the chaplain?Or only can be count as a normal member of the squad?

Suggest that an enemy model in base-contact with the chaplain inflict a wound on the chaplain,with his powerfist.Could the owner of the chappy allocate this wound to servitors,or the owner must let the chaplain take this wound himself?



Thanks.

tokugawa wrote:If a Black Templars chaplain with cenobyte servitors joined a squad,and the whole unit engaged with enemy in CC.

Then,could the Cenobyte Servitors be count as the retinue of the chaplain?Or only can be count as a normal member of the squad?

Suggest that an enemy model in base-contact with the chaplain inflict a wound on the chaplain,with his powerfist.Could the owner of the chappy allocate this wound to servitors,or the owner must let the chaplain take this wound himself?



Thanks.

I am not familiar with the cenobite servitors from the BTs, however, if I read your post right, it sounds like you can take them with your chaplain. If this true, my understanding of the rules is that he can not join any units because he has units attached to him. So if he and his servitors get into hand to hand with another unit, he can allocate the wounds. However, he can not join another unit with his servitors because the rules don't allow it. He would have to drop the servitors to become an independent unit to join another unit. Of course, I don't have a BT codex, so if there are some special rules specific to the chaplain, I don't know about them.

If the cenobytes count as 'retinue' then he is a unit and cannot join squads.

If the cenobytes count as 'wargear' he is an independant character unit and may still join squads.

As far as your original question that is a tough call. Considering IC's in a unit must be in base of nme models to get/take strikes and they would need to be declared.

I'll leave it up to lawyers.

Cenobyte servitors always and automatically join the same unit which their chaplain joined.

This is special for templars,different from other characters with servitors(e.g. techmarine,he cannot join any unit if he has servitors).But the codex did not give further explaination...

Boy, thats an ugly situation....

I would consider them a retinue, since I don't think the chaplain can leave them.
Plus, it gets even uglier if they are not.

coredump wrote:Boy, thats an ugly situation....

I would consider them a retinue, since I don't think the chaplain can leave them.
Plus, it gets even uglier if they are not.

Agreed, they sound like a retinue, much like the servitors for the tech marines. But, you need to figure out if they are in-fact a retinue.

I think that they are a wargear upgrade only and do not count as a retinue.

They are removed if the chaplain is removed and since they are wargear I would also think that they are not a unit for kill point purposes since there is no way for them to exist outside of having and being attached to the chaplain.

Somnicide wrote:I think that they are a wargear upgrade only and do not count as a retinue.

They are removed if the chaplain is removed and since they are wargear I would also think that they are not a unit for kill point purposes since there is no way for them to exist outside of having and being attached to the chaplain.

What is your basis for this conclusion?

Why do models being purchased as wargear mean they aren't models and don't form a unit? I assume you play that the Cenobyte Servitors can move, fight in close combat and be shot at, all things that require you to follow the rules for units.

It is true that the rules for all the old-school 'wargear' models that remain in the game are woefully under-written if we choose to play that Cenobyte Servitors don't form a 'unit' of some sorts with the Chaplain then the game pretty much breaks down as you are unable to move, shoot at or fight an assault with the Cenobytes.

So if we can assume that the Cenobytes do form a unit with the Chaplain then they would most certainly fall under the 'retinue' rule on page 48 of the rulebook as they are a unit that the Character cannot leave during the game.

So yes, attacks against the Chaplain in combat would actually go against the Chaplain/Servitor unit.

I was under the impression that items purchased as wargear, but were infact models, were treated differently than 'retinue' models.... this was a bit ago (well before 5th ed) and it could have changed, or I could have been mislead.

Tau gun drones come into mind.... and those dogs that chaos lords can have.

Somnicide wrote:So if we can assume that the Cenobytes do form a unit with the Chaplain then they would most certainly fall under the 'retinue' rule on page 48 of the rulebook as they are a unit that the Character cannot leave during the game.

So yes, attacks against the Chaplain in combat would actually go against the Chaplain/Servitor unit.

If it is a retinue, can the chaplain join another unit as the OP was asking? If it can join the unit, then the wounds can be allocated to his retinue, correct?

The BT rules say he, and the C servitors, can join another unit.

Makes CC a bit tricky.... I would treat the unit and the IC/retinue as two different units for CC purposes. This means you don't have to be in Base with the Chap, just with his retinue.

Okay Yak, so, you take one with cenobytes in a retinue (which black templars have the option to do still) so you have a unit in unit in a unit?

I have wargear options that give you extra models and still let you join a unit.

Harkainos wrote:I was under the impression that items purchased as wargear, but were infact models, were treated differently than 'retinue' models.... this was a bit ago (well before 5th ed) and it could have changed, or I could have been mislead.

Tau gun drones come into mind.... and those dogs that chaos lords can have.

This is a common misconception that many people have bought into without any provocation from the actual rules. How exactly models with characteristics are purchased onto the table doesn't change the fact that they are models an therefore must form a unit of some sort in order to work within the basic game rules.

All models with characteristics must be part of a unit of some sort otherwise they cannot move, shoot or be shot at, assault or be assaulted because all of those rules are written for units.

There aren't too many wargear models with characteristics left in the game: Tau Drones, SW wolves, Cenobyte Servitors (and for a short wile, SM familiars) are the ones that jump to mind. Some of those, like the Tau drones are more specific in their rules stating that they form a unit with their character. However, for the ones that have less clear rules (like Cenobyte Servitors) we're left with a situation where we just kind of have to guess how to play it because there is no way to play it that makes sense without making up some rules.

Flexen wrote:
If it is a retinue, can the chaplain join another unit as the OP was asking? If it can join the unit, then the wounds can be allocated to his retinue, correct?

Although the Cenobyte Servitor rules don't specifically say that a Chaplain with Servitors can still join other units, it does make clear reference to the fact that this can possibly happen:

"Note that this affects any Infantry squad the Chaplain (and his Servitors) has joined, leads or is attached to."


I think that is enough to convince most people that a Chaplain with Servitors is supposed to be able to join a unit even if the rules don't specifically say that he can.

Somnicide wrote:Okay Yak, so, you take one with cenobytes in a retinue (which black templars have the option to do still) so you have a unit in unit in a unit?

I have wargear options that give you extra models and still let you join a unit.

Again, let me be clear we're talking about incomplete rules, so there is no clear cut way to play it.


However, I would personally go with the ruling they made on Tau drones in their FAQ and play that if the character is part of a unit that he can't leave, then his Servitors are also part of that unit (one big retinue unit in this case).

If the Character with Servitors joins another unit (so he can leave it later in the game) when in close combat you essentially have two units to fight against when allocating attacks: The character and his servitors and the unit they are joined to.

I never said they weren't units... simply that they were treated differently than a retinue.

Tau Drones, for example - join the IC as part of an IC Unit, and followed the rules (targeting, combat, coherancy) of IC units.

In any case, I thought they were treated different.

** Note ** its 'while' LOL

My take on it would be that the Servitors are not a unit, but wargear, and although they can't be left by the Chaplain, they are not a retinue as such. Retinues are units that can't be left by an IC. Cenobytes are not units, as they have no unit entry in the Codex. Btw, Profile =/= Unit entry, to avoid confusion.

Burning Star IV wrote:My take on it would be that the Servitors are not a unit, but wargear, and although they can't be left by the Chaplain, they are not a retinue as such. Retinues are units that can't be left by an IC. Cenobytes are not units, as they have no unit entry in the Codex. Btw, Profile =/= Unit entry, to avoid confusion.

So you don't move the Servitors then? You don't allow anyone to shoot at them? They can't be assaulted?


Only units can be moved, only units can be shot at, only units can assault or be assaulted.

if they are in fact not a unit, you would have no way to classify them... movement/dt test/targetting.

Yak is correct (which is SOOO suprising), but they do not make the character anything more than an IC unit (unlike retinue)

That make sense?

yakface wrote:

Burning Star IV wrote:My take on it would be that the Servitors are not a unit, but wargear, and although they can't be left by the Chaplain, they are not a retinue as such. Retinues are units that can't be left by an IC. Cenobytes are not units, as they have no unit entry in the Codex. Btw, Profile =/= Unit entry, to avoid confusion.

So you don't move the Servitors then? You don't allow anyone to shoot at them? They can't be assaulted?


Only units can be moved, only units can be shot at, only units can assault or be assaulted.

I know for sure they aren't a unit, and therefore not a retinue, so if what you say holds true (only units can move, shoot, get shot at, etc.), then yes, you are correct, and this rules vacuum needs to be filled in.

Thank you for answering questions.

yakface's answer convinced me.Different from the way I used to run them,but reasonable(....and make the chappy tougher,actually).

And, if I should operate the servitors as they form a "minor unit" with a chaplain,under the infantry unit.Then the servitors must keep coherency with the chaplain.Is it correct?

tokugawa wrote:Then the servitors must keep coherency with the chaplain.Is it correct?

Wargear or retinue or unit - they will have to keep coherency no matter what.