Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With the new TLOS in effect, must a model's eye view be taken from a model's eyes? (sounds dumb but hear me out)

The most glaring example for me is of tau firewarriors disembarked behind a devilfish. The "eyes" of most models are blocked by the fish, but most of the model (and the crouching ones) could be seen under the skimmer. Are only the crouching ones allowed to shoot just because i have static models or can LOS be drawn anywhere from a model representing the model moving, crouching etc... to get a better shot off?

I think that it has to be what the model, as modeled can see. My IG heavy weapons teams are in trouble on roof tops with a low wall around them and in buildings with standard windows since they can't see over.

acc12090, in your example, only those with actual LOS can see past the tank. Pg 16"Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the fring model" and pg 21 "As usual, check the firers' line of sight by taking a good look from behind their heads, and 'see what they see'". Both of these entries seems to accept what you stated about the crouching models. If you have some Firewarriors that can see under their transport due to being lower than the rest, then this follows the requirements for LOS. As many have said with the new TLOS, modeling to your advantage is acceptable, but in all cases, it is measured from a model's eyes (head).

so putting my heavy weapon team shooter on stilts is perfectly acceptable?

Don't see why not. Of course, the taller you make yourself, the more likely you will not be able to benefit from cover.

yakface wrote:40K rule #1: You can use modeling to your advantage, you can use modeling to your advantage, you can use modeling to your advantage.

DaBoss wrote:Don't see why not. Of course, the taller you make yourself, the more likely you will not be able to benefit from cover.

The thing is, that's not true in a squad situation. If I make a marine with a missile launcher 1 foot tall by putting him on stilts, he'll be able to see just about anything on the table and everything will be able to see him. The problem is that you have to have unobstructed line of sight to over 50% of the squad for them to not get cover, so he'll get cover saves against anything shooting at him so long as the unit shooting can't see the majority of the marine's squad. Kind of lame that it works that way, but that's how it is.

Phoenix wrote:The thing is, that's not true in a squad situation. If I make a marine with a missile launcher 1 foot tall by putting him on stilts, he'll be able to see just about anything on the table and everything will be able to see him. The problem is that you have to have unobstructed line of sight to over 50% of the squad for them to not get cover, so he'll get cover saves against anything shooting at him so long as the unit shooting can't see the majority of the marine's squad. Kind of lame that it works that way, but that's how it is.

Given that it's much easier in general to get cover saves for units in this edition, it's not really as big an exploit as it seems on paper.

Phoenix wrote:

DaBoss wrote:Don't see why not. Of course, the taller you make yourself, the more likely you will not be able to benefit from cover.

The thing is, that's not true in a squad situation. If I make a marine with a missile launcher 1 foot tall by putting him on stilts, he'll be able to see just about anything on the table and everything will be able to see him. The problem is that you have to have unobstructed line of sight to over 50% of the squad for them to not get cover, so he'll get cover saves against anything shooting at him so long as the unit shooting can't see the majority of the marine's squad. Kind of lame that it works that way, but that's how it is.

This is the main flaw, in my mind, of the new edition. GW wanted TLOS, but only up to a point. The instant the model can see the body of another model TLOS goes out the window and you now use the abstract "squad" as your target. Why? Because the squad is dynamic and moving within itself. Yet the firer is static and can not kneel down to shoot under the tank like some other models in the squad. Give this model the dunce cap for not knowing how to kneel!

Any system that punishes or favors people customizing their model is flawed. Any system that switches between types of LOS rules is flawed. Any system that use TLOS and does not have their models scaled to the entire model range is flawed (vehicles are the main problem in this one, how do twelve tau fit in a devilfish model or ten marines in a Rhino).

The Wraith

I have no trouble assuming that firewarriors can kneel, assuming that the firewarriors want to give my guard a 4+ save.

The tau player can also have two sets of models to represent the same squad, one all kneeling, and the others standing to shoot over cover.

the_wraith wrote:

Phoenix wrote:

DaBoss wrote:Don't see why not. Of course, the taller you make yourself, the more likely you will not be able to benefit from cover.

The thing is, that's not true in a squad situation. If I make a marine with a missile launcher 1 foot tall by putting him on stilts, he'll be able to see just about anything on the table and everything will be able to see him. The problem is that you have to have unobstructed line of sight to over 50% of the squad for them to not get cover, so he'll get cover saves against anything shooting at him so long as the unit shooting can't see the majority of the marine's squad. Kind of lame that it works that way, but that's how it is.

This is the main flaw, in my mind, of the new edition. GW wanted TLOS, but only up to a point. The instant the model can see the body of another model TLOS goes out the window and you now use the abstract "squad" as your target. Why? Because the squad is dynamic and moving within itself. Yet the firer is static and can not kneel down to shoot under the tank like some other models in the squad. Give this model the dunce cap for not knowing how to kneel!

Any system that punishes or favors people customizing their model is flawed. Any system that switches between types of LOS rules is flawed. Any system that use TLOS and does not have their models scaled to the entire model range is flawed (vehicles are the main problem in this one, how do twelve tau fit in a devilfish model or ten marines in a Rhino).

The Wraith

I couldn't agree more with you on this one. I guess i'll just have to put my 'fish on some higher bases...

Valhallan42nd wrote:I have no trouble assuming that firewarriors can kneel, assuming that the firewarriors want to give my guard a 4+ save.

The tau player can also have two sets of models to represent the same squad, one all kneeling, and the others standing to shoot over cover.

I am glad to see you would be okay with shooting under the tank, but there are many people who would not and RAW would say you could not either. Playing reasonable people make this kind of rule not bad, but when you run into the other type of player you have this problem. It is something I wish GW had gotten rid of. They went the wrong way with their rules. They should have gone for size categories and then people could have modelled to their heart's content without having to worry about the "in game effect" they have just made.

The Wraith

Yeah, then we could play with cardboard chits on a flat board.

coredump wrote:

Yeah, then we could play with cardboard chits on a flat board.

Or we all could throw our 40K stuff in the river, grab some guns and fight each other for real, then we'd see real quick how much crouching, popping up to squeeze off a shot and other shenigans we'd be willing to do. (Can anybody say overwatch?) Sigh...