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I'm having trouble deciding between these two lists, any help would be appreciated. Both lists are intended for 'ardboys style tournies.

List 1:

HQ:
Farseer w/Doom+Fortune, Jetbike, RofWard, Stones
7 x Warlocks, Bikes, Embolden, Enhance

Troops:
4 x 3 Jetbikes w/Shuricannon
2 x 6 Pathfinders

Fast Attack:
3 x 1 Vypers w/EML

Heavy:
3 x Fire Prism w/Holo-field


OR

List 2:

HQ:
Farseer w/Stones, RofWard, Doom, Fortune, Bike
7 x Warlocks w/Bikes, Enhance x2, Embolden x 2

Troops:
5 x 3 Jetbikes w/Shuricannon

Fast Attack:
3 x 2 Vypers w/EML

Heavy Support:
3 x Fire Prisms w/Holo-field


So, of those two lists which one comes out on top? Basically it comes down to a trade off between the pathfinders which I love and more blasty goodness from the vypers, which I also love.

EDIT: Fixed wrong powers on farseer, d'oh!

I like the first list, BUT you have a ton of really easy killpoints waiting to be picked off...

how about 2x6 jetbikes instead of 4x3?

and 1x3 vypers instead of 3x1?

and 1x10 pathfinders (I can't see 6 killing a whole squad/MC)

14 killpoints in 1750 is guard style crazy...

Also, no fortune on the farseer????????
I think you meant fortune and wrote guide...

So i would say:

farseer, with toys
7 jetlocks

10 rangers

2x6+1 jetbikes (warlock with embolden)

1x2 vypers EML
3x1 prisms

Down to 9 kps, and your jetbikes won't immediately run.

Simply put: Only bad players worry about giving up killpoints.

To wit, 1x3 Vypers is easier to kill than 3x1 and 6 Jetbikes, even with an embolden warlock (eww!) is gonna be killed or run off the board too easily to justify putting too many eggs in one basket.

Back on topic! Not looking for C&C on the lists, just which of the two lists is going to be more viable in a tournament scenario.

Addendum: Mathhammer on 6 pathfinders says they'll probably down a TMC in one turn, or come close enough to make it count. If you add in doom then it's bankable.

zmc wrote:
Back on topic! Not looking for C&C on the lists, just which of the two lists is going to be more viable in a tournament scenario.

Erm... neither, IMO.

The 3-'man' bike squads are gonna drop like flies. You have 14 EASY KPs in this list, and you should be concerned about that. Vypers go down when someone so much as farts on them, and your bike squads aren't going to last very long at all, either.

You need more Jetbikes if you're going to focus on them. I field 3x9 in 1750, and also go with some mech Storm Guardians. That gives me a good mix. I decided to disband my Vypers when my opponent starting increasing his daily bean intake (har har, uproarious laughter). The FPs are invaluable.

The main problem with those lists is they don't capitalize on the Jetbike concept of hit-and-run. Your Jetbike units will be too small to have any staying power, your Jetlock squad has great potential to become displaced from the rest of your army (even Fortune won't save you against the entire brunt of the enemy assault, once you're in combat, the 10 or so points that you spent on each Jetbike for its movement value will be useless). The strength of Jetbikes are their shooting, and that's why I've always hesitated to field pricy Jetlock squadrons. And what's up with those pathfinders? They are not in line to take out a TMC. Your Jetlock squad can do that anyways.

Edit those lists, or you will crash and burn at tournaments with any decent competitors in it.

I don't really want to turn this into a "KPs zomg lol" conversation, but...

KPs only matter in 1/3 of missions, I find this even more rare at tournaments that aren't ran by zombies from planet X because it's such a horrible system. Fear of KPs is not a concern of mine.

Also, Bike councils are the single most durable unit available to Eldar lists, I used to run a maxed bike council but found that I could get by alright with just an 8 man unit.

I'd go into how easy it is to keep Vypers alive but I think the only person who might back me up on that in this forum would be Stelek.

EDIT: As this thread seems doomed to fall into a vacuum of "dude ur lists is lame choose mine" I guess I'll just lock and keep testing on my own. Even though it's easy to say "zomg your list will get crushed by all these lists on the internet!" I'm keeping W/L ratio of 3:1 with each at the local battle bunker.

zmc wrote:I don't really want to turn this into a "KPs zomg lol" conversation, but...

KPs only matter in 1/3 of missions, I find this even more rare at tournaments that aren't ran by zombies from planet X because it's such a horrible system. Fear of KPs is not a concern of mine.

Also, Bike councils are the single most durable unit available to Eldar lists, I used to run a maxed bike council but found that I could get by alright with just an 8 man unit.

I'd go into how easy it is to keep Vypers alive but I think the only person who might back me up on that in this forum would be Stelek.

...which means you'll lose approx. 1/3 of missions, considering those will be KP missions (lists like these I think were incentives for the KP system)...

Bike councils may be 'durable,' but their durability is limited to within 12" of the enemy. For the price you pay for them, you could buy many more guns all around your army. Even if you say they're 'likely' to get within 12" (which they are), that doesn't always mean that they'll be a sound investment. What they lack is power weapons, and if your opponent gets any decent Sv rolls, then you'll be stuck in it for the long haul with your 500 point unit. Forget not getting first turn with those guys; without Fortune, you'll be toast.

And I'm very, very curious how Vypers are easy to keep alive. I'm also curious why you think Stelek backing you up is sufficient cause, but that's a whole 'nother story unto itself...

We're now completely off-topic,

If you get "stuck in for the long haul" with a bike council you're going to beat your opponent, that's their strength. Staying power in the face of well... anything. They're T4, 3+/4++ with rerolls. Their one major game-breaker the Psychic Hood with unlimited range is now going to be 24" range. Fortune will almost always be up due to Embolden allowing rerolls on the psychic test.

So you have a unit that's going to be needing 3+ to hit the majority of their opponents (enhance), will swing before their opposition (enhance), that will then wound on 2+... and your main concern is "Good save rolls". If you spend more than 1-2 rounds of combat with the same enemy unit with this squad it's due to statistical oddities and nothing else, they're more likely to be one-rounding anything they face and then wiping them out. Their range limitation isn't 12" it's 18". And that means a whole lot more when you throw in the fact that they ignore terrain.

Keeping Vypers alive is all about one simple concept: Range. Not to mention the fact that they have a complete hull size-to-LOS discrepancy where you can hide the bulk of the vehicles hull and still draw LOS from their turret to your target.

Also, your implied Stelek bashing is a bit misplaced. While he might not be a PR genius, he's definitely got his tactics screwed on straight, and he definitely doesn't need me to defend him so I'll leave it at that.

Much love. I guess I have to get a new avatar too.

I wasn't bashing Stelek, saying that any one person would back you up, while entirely likely, is hardly a defending statement.

As for getting off topic, I realize we are, but we're still more or less talking about the composition of the list based on what's in it, are we not?

Getting stuck in for the long hall would be a bad thing for the Locks, even if they do end up winning. They're an expensive unit, and every turn they're in combat, while that's where they should be, is just another turn when a unit 1/3 their price and twice their size is bogging them down in CC. As for their range... we don't normally describe rapid-firing bolters as having an 18" range. And if we're speaking in those terms, you could give yourself an extra 6", for their Shuricats.

Keeping Vypers alive is not as easy as you make it sound, as you're going to need some pretty precise terrain to accommodate your size-to-LOS discrepancy where other vehicles normally wouldn't. Their range is also a problem, as they don't have a range like FPs do.

I'm really trying my best to not make this an argument (and I think any steps towards an argument are probably on account of myself anyways), but my personal opinion on the lists and all your points is that you have the right answers, but to the wrong questions. That's all.

Their combat range is 18", the shuricats are more of a side effect of the bikes than their main purpose.

We definitely have a very basic disagreement in tactics.

For example:
-You like to use your jetbike squads as a shooting unit.

-I prefer to use them as a harrying unit that only exposes itself towards the end of the game and takes pot shots from relative safety using small unit footprint and JSJ to their advantage. Something that is nigh-on-impossible to do with a 9-man bike squad.

-You have trouble keeping vypers alive.

-I use their 48" range and extremely small size to keep them out of range of the great bolter death and give them cover saves where possible against the enemies other long range weaponry. Which begs the question what incompetent opponent are you playing who's wasting lascannons etc vs your vypers instead of your fire prisms... but that's another discussion concerning fire dilution and unit positioning.

-I have no idea what you use your bike council for.

-I use mine as a screening unit when necessary and as a close-combat monster whenever possible. 24 attacks on the charge after you double-tap with the shuricats is in my humble opinion the single most deadly unit in wh40k... Sure it's 510 points, and I've spent far more on larger versions, but it has on countless occasions proven to single-handed decide the outcome of a game by being almost imposible for my opponent to nullify and being more than capable of downing tyrants with tyrant guards, cc-specialist squads, etc.

The original topic of this post was "Is list A better or list B", I don't ever remember asking for people to make new lists and have even said as much previously in the thread...

User requested thread lock.