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So this might be going out on a limb. Here is a reason to take an Ethereal

Page 33 of the Tau Empire Codex in the Ethereal Honour Paragraph

"The Honour guard is chosen as a normal Fire Warrior team (it does not count as the compulsory choice), but does not take up an additional Force Organization slot."

This is the way I take this.

1) "it does not count as the compulsory choice" They are referring to a Fire Warrior Honour Guard not taking up the +1 compulsory Fire Warrior choice and the 2 Mandatory Troops choices.

2) "but does not take up an addition Force Organization slot" It permits the player to take a potential 7th Fire Warrior Squad.

In the Chaos codex we have Daemons who are troops but do not take up a Troop FOC or the 2+ mandatory Troop slots or the maximum for that matter.

I see nothing in the Rule Book that would dispute the fact that a Fire Warrior Honour Guard are non FOC Troops.

This means you have a unit of Fire Warriors that are BS 4, Fearless and cost 12 points a piece. They can score and you have an actual reason to take an Ethereal.

What you need, is something in the rulebook that says FWs taken that way count as troops.

If you don't have that, you don't have anything.

I don't see anything saying Honor Guard fire warriors count as troops. Based on everything you have presented, they stand apart from the Force Org Chart, essentially counting as nothing, except perhaps an extension of the ethereal's force org slot, much like a retinue for an HQ unit.

The reason fire warriors count as troops is because they occupy the Troops force org slot. There's nothing in their special rules that makes them count as troops other than their placement in the org chart. Honor Guard do not have a place in the org chart, therefore they couldn't count as a troop.

Like you say, it's going out on a limb, and I don't think RAW supports this usage (as a scoring unit).

They are merely an extention of an ethereal's "unit" and so are counted as part of this HQ choice.

meaning they are no longer a troop choice as such so cannot capture obectives ect.

but i think that would allow you to take 7 units of fire warriors.

I am going to need quotes and rules to back your opinions. Because until I see some proof of some kind thats all they are.

DonkeyCannon wrote:

"The Honour guard is chosen as a normal Fire Warrior team (it does not count as the compulsory choice), but does not take up an additional Force Organization slot."

There's your quote AND your rule. Supplied ever so graciously by yourself.

Just as Sammael's special rules move DA bikes to the troops slot (and hence they are scoring units), the FW Honor Guard do not count as troops (Hence they are not scoring units) because the Ethereal's rules say so.

Edited for spelling.

The are a retinue for the ethereal. If you look at the IC entry for the ethereal. "unless accompanied by an honor guard the ethereal is an IC"

They are no different than any other retinue.

@ Red Lives - Any IC that joins a unit or has a retinue is no longer an Independent Character. However the word Retinue is not used in any entry on page 33 of the Tau Empire codex. So what is this retinue you speak of. The rule book does not dispute my original post, at least in the Retinue entry.

@ Coredump there is nothing RAW that disputes what I have stated. True they do not come out and call an Honour Guard of Fire Warriors Troops, but there is no mention of them not being troops in the Ethereal entry. There is no mention of where they come from at all.

@ Sourclams a unit has to come from a force organisation slot. If it counts as the mandatory, minumum, maximum whatever it comes from somewhere. There is no mention that it does not come from the Troops slot. It does not say they are not Troops, therefore we have to assume they come from the Troops slot. Every other retinue specifically states where they come from.

@ JD21290 You just pulled your response out of your ass.

@ Lordhat I did not provide my own rule. You did not provide any valid evidence to prove what I said was false. Your mention of the DA codex is irrelevant. At best it proves the DA codex is better worded.

5 of you have spoken against me with irrelevant, off topic or unsubstantial arguments. This is the internet where majority rules, I don't play that game. I need rules and quotes, not vague cross references and opinions. I am quite reasonable and when I get a proper argument I will yield.

This is something that needs to be Ratified, Yakface you seem to have some pull with GW. How often do people take Ethereals. This might prompt a player or two to take one. Until it is ratified or a decent argument which pertains to the entry I quoted is given I won't back down because 5 people who didn't research this don't agree with me. I would rather be proven wrong than to have this question unanswered. I hope someone out there has a solution.

DonkeyCannon wrote:How often do people take Ethereals.

They don't.

Point failure source = Epic Fail.

Ethereals aren't needed in a Tau army, never were really and definitely not now where there are no real modifiers to shooting morale checks (and Tau + CC = lolz).

The only guys who would want a re-roll are Kroot, and since they will usually make or break in CC...where they win big or lose big, I don't think they mean much (especially since they can't use his re-roll....greater good my foot).

I think the FW team is simply a extra FW team and does count as a troop. Big deal.

@DonkeyCannon
BRB p.48 Retinues "Some Codex books allow you to feild characters with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'BODYGUARD' or similar) Where this is the case the character counts as an upgrade character, until all of the other members of this unit are killed, at which point it stars counting as an independent character and will do so for the rest of the game"

So yes the honor guard is a RETINUE! as it meets these criteria for the rule.

P. 33 Tau Empire "unless accompanied by an honor guard the ethereal is an IC"

Again its a retinue. Cut and dry

Well, one ore shot. But it sure seems like DK has made up his mind, and anything that contradicts his wish list is deemed 'irrelevant'....

However the word Retinue is not used in any entry on page 33 of the Tau Empire codex. So what is this retinue you speak of. The rule book does not dispute my original post, at least in the Retinue entry.

You are making up a rule, with no written rule to back you up. A Retinue is defined in the BRB, if you meet the definition, you are a retinue. Marine commanders with bodygaurd are also retinue, though the rule is not used. Tyrants guard are called retinue, but they are not actually considered retinue as in this context.

@ Coredump there is nothing RAW that disputes what I have stated. True they do not come out and call an Honour Guard of Fire Warriors Troops, but there is no mention of them not being troops in the Ethereal entry. There is no mention of where they come from at all.

And this is where you have it totally backwards. *YOU* have to provide a rule that shows the fire warriors chosen with Ethereal count as troops. Until you do that, the point is moot.

They are not considered troops, until the rules say they are troops. Do you have a rule that says they are troops? No?
Now who is pulling things out of their ass?

There is no mention that it does not come from the Troops slot. It does not say they are not Troops, therefore we have to assume they come from the Troops slot.

So now we have gone from 'Rules as Written' to 'Rules as Assumed by DK'. Not quite the same.
No, Troops count as scoring. Not units that you think we should assume are troops.
You are, again, trying to proved a negative. First you have to prove the positive. Where does it say that they are considered troops? Just because they are considered troops when *selected as* troops, does *not* mean they are troops when selected with the Ethereal. Unless, of course, you can actually provide a rule (written please, no more personal assumptions) that states it.

@ JD21290 You just pulled your response out of your ass.

Ah, the irony is thick here.

Your mention of the DA codex is irrelevant. At best it proves the DA codex is better worded.

Let me get this straight. His mentioning the DA dex is irrelevant, but your mentioning "Every other retinue specifically states where they come from." is okay. Yeah, don't let consistency spoil your wish list.

Until it is ratified or a decent argument which pertains to the entry I quoted is given I won't back down because 5 people who didn't research this don't agree with me. I would rather be proven wrong than to have this question unanswered.

You are being a pompous ass. And the situation has been answered, several times, different ways, by different people. You don't want to listen, then play it however you want. But stop being such a pompous ass.

Red Lives cleared up but thanks Coredump

"@ JD21290 You just pulled your response out of your ass."


nice use of words, borderline childish though, grow up and learn to read something before asking in the future, i answered your question (as you do on a thread) and got a childish response.
and to quote something, then ask someone to mention a quote relating to it, after you just had, is somewhat slowed.