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Okay I've been tweaking around the Eldar list I posted a while ago, so here is the more refined list with points and thoughts as well. This is a Biel Tan list, focusing on the use of Aspect Warriors. The total comes to exactly 1750 points.

HQs:

Farseer, spirit stones, Guide, Doom [120]


Farseer, spirit stones, Guide, Doom [120]

The Farseers are there to boost and buff the rest of the army. In general I'd expect them to be riding in with the Dire Avengers but really they'd go where ever I feel they are needed the most.


Elites:

Striking Scorpions: Full squad + Exarch with chain sabers & Shadowstrike [197]

This army is mostly focused on shooting, so scorpions are my only dedicated assault unit. They can infiltrate, means they won't be on the table 1st turn to get shot up. They are a flanking unit, or for counter charges.

Troops:

Dire Avengers: Full squad + Exarch with Bladstorm & diresword [162]
mounted in a Wave Serpent with TL BLs [145]

Dire Avengers: Full squad + Exarch with Bladstorm & diresword [162]
mounted in a Wave Serpent with TL BLs [145]

The Dire Avengers are the core of my army. They are great anti-horde troops and their sheer volume of fire makes them great anti-MEQ as well. They are not mean to assault with, but they don't suck in HtH either so I'm not afraid about getting them stuck in if I have to. Once the DA are dropped off (if I even started them mounted to being with) the Wave Serpents would begin the task of eliminating enemy armor. This army already has a lot of good anti-horde stuff but few dedicated AT assets, which is why I went with the BL over the EML.

Rangers: 5 Rangers [95]

The 5 rangers bring the army to exactly 1750 points, and they could hang back and hold an objective on my side of the table or just give covering fire.

Heavy Support

Dark Reapers: Full squad + Exarch with Fast Shot & EML [217]

Dark Reapers: Full squad + Exarch with Fast Shot & EML [217]

I LOVE Dark Reapers. My serious regret when I played Eldar years ago was only having one squad. Even Horde armies will have good units for them to target, and all those MEQ armies are not going to suddenly be shoved to the back of closets. I know people spank over the Tempest Launcher but I just don't see it as the best choice considering the rest of this army. I can still drop templates if I need to, but besides the Wave Serpents this is the only other unit that can really smash up enemy armor.

War Walkers: 3 Walkers with 6x Scatter Lasers [180]

Anti-horde and anti-light armor with enough volume of fire to seriously put the hurt on MEQs as well. Yeah they are a squadron of Armor 10 vehicles, but they cost as much as or less than most tanks in the game and you have to put the hurt on 3 of them, not just 1 vehicle to render them ineffective.

Heavy Armor could give this army problems, Landraiders or a Leman Russ from the front could be an issue. But if someone brings 2 Landraiders then there isn't going to be a whole lot else in the army to contend with. This is why the Wave Serpents are set up as tank killers. I considered TAU to be an issue then I realized I can simply mow down their infantry who are stuck in the open and Crisis Suits can't kill enough before I maneuver around to trap them. Since there are no more rolling assaults due to the new consolidation rules, I'll be able to catch nasty assault units in a hail of fire.

A couple of thoughts on the list.

1) You are kind of light on troops. Yes the avengers are decent all around troops and yes the pathfinders are a good choice, but you only havev 3 units that can actually hold objectives and that (as I found in a tournament recently) can really hurt you. At least your 2 primary troop units are mobile and can get to where they need to be. So if you are going to stick with them the way they are (and you can make it work) you are going to have to put some effort into protecting them. Keep them out of hand to hand and make sure you soften up enemies with your other units before you move up your avengers. The reapers and war walkers should do a good job of that though.

2) You are kind of light on anti tank power. The bright lances on the wave serpents are a good plan, but after that, you are kind of lacking.

3) Reaper exarchs and missile launchers don't mix. I understand that you were looking to overcome your anti tank deficite but every single time you fire a reaper squad at a tank, 4 reapers worth of anti troop death are completely wasted. That sort of waste just really offends my eldar sensibilities.

4) As things are now, your farseers are set up best to ride along with the dire avengers. However, you may want to consider making one of them a back field unit. If you do this, you can ditch doom and the spirit stones and then place the else where (like on spirit stones for the serpents, or runes of various kinds for the farseers).

First off thanks for the reply. While I am responding to your points, I am considering them and trying to make good arguments or give examples of my thinking, not simply rebuffing what you've said. Direct responses are in orange.

1) You are kind of light on troops. Yes the avengers are decent all around troops and yes the pathfinders are a good choice, but you only have 3 units that can actually hold objectives and that (as I found in a tournament recently) can really hurt you.

This is going to be a tournament army as I really enjoy the tournament scene. I've found that yes, 3 troop choices is about the minimum I'd want to have but for some armies 4 troops could be too much. In tournaments some armies can get by with 2 choices. I've found it works to simply keep my troops on my objectives to defend them and use everything else to knock my opponent off his. Trying to claim heavily contested objectives with your troops just invites them to the slaughter.

The problem I have with the Eldar is that IMHO you need to really like the base core troop of your army. I love Dire Avengers, but I think a 3rd squad could be too much of a generic thing. The Eldar army is a specialist swiss-army knife with each part working in unison. In larger games, a 3rd squad of DA may be good, but I feel I'd have to give up too much to squeeze them into this list. If I did take them they'd be replacing the rangers and I think I'd have to drop a Farseer.

I don't think rangers are the best choice but they give me some more variety and a bit more visual interest in the army. Plus they can sit back on an objective and overlap fire with my "rearguard units", ie: the dark reapers and roving War Walkers. Did I mention a minimum size squad is also the exact points I'd need to fill out 1750 points?

Guardians don't just suck, they feltch. I fielded a unit before to give them a try and I hate them. I'm not going to waste my time or brushes painting a unit that has a joke for an armor save. Also I am one of those people who thinks that for a dying race who has all these specialized troops, they need to leave the civilians at home!

2) You are kind of light on anti tank power. The bright lances on the wave serpents are a good plan, but after that, you are kind of lacking.

Agreed! Experience has taught me that a balanced list sucks at everything. Yes I am light on AT, but the two TL BLs are some serious dedicated AT since they can even take down AV14s. I might not kill two landraiders, but I can sure slow one down! In general, the tournament lists I've seen tend to run light on vehicles anyways, and a "horde of vehicles" in practice translates to a horde of light armor vehicles. Against that type of army suddenly all my S5&6 weapons become vehicle poppers and bolster my heavier AT!

3) Reaper exarchs and missile launchers don't mix. I understand that you were looking to overcome your anti tank deficite but every single time you fire a reaper squad at a tank, 4 reapers worth of anti troop death are completely wasted. That sort of waste just really offends my eldar sensibilities.

If I drop the EMLs then my only heavy AT are the BLs, which is not good! The ELMs are currently near the top of the list in points expenses, to get it so cheaply on a BS5 model that can up its RoF is just a great deal to me! I used these back in 3E before to great effect. So the other 4 guys aren't going to effective on the target, how many times to does a marine squad have to all sit there while the one guy with a ML tries to kill a tank their bolters can't hurt? Sometimes you just gotta make those kinds of choices, and taking the EML gives me that option, as opposed to not having it at all (Step 1: open can. Step 2: squish contents!). Again, my experience chimes in and tells me that it's not a waste to fire missiles at MEQs since you are nearly guaranteed to hit and wound, with the added benefit of instant death!

4) As things are now, your farseers are set up best to ride along with the dire avengers. However, you may want to consider making one of them a back field unit. If you do this, you can ditch doom and the spirit stones and then place the else where (like on spirit stones for the serpents, or runes of various kinds for the farseers).

Really I am not set on having the Farseers ride with the DAs. I do know that whoever they are with, they will be standing BEHIND THEM! I think it'd be hard to screw up using them in this army, they can help everyone out! The little voice of experience also says that things are going to get close so I will very likely have range for Doom, even in the back field. It's there for when I see the pending assaults...

Swordbreaker wrote:
Guardians don't just suck, they feltch. I fielded a unit before to give them a try and I hate them. I'm not going to waste my time or brushes painting a unit that has a joke for an armor save. Also I am one of those people who thinks that for a dying race who has all these specialized troops, they need to leave the civilians at home!

Guardians are not great, but they are not that bad at doing what their name suggests...guarding. The general idea is keep them back and take pot shots with the heavy weapon. Back up as necessary. You only move them forward if you need to get them somewhere special or if you think you can wipe out something that's gotten close with a volley of shuriken catapult fire. Regardless, if you don’t' like guardians, there is always the options of jetbikes or dire avengers on foot. Either would fill the void. Foot avengers might even be the best idea since that unit could me a good mid field unit for your farseers to hang out in.

If I drop the EMLs then my only heavy AT are the BLs, which is not good! The ELMs are currently near the top of the list in points expenses, to get it so cheaply on a BS5 model that can up its RoF is just a great deal to me! I used these back in 3E before to great effect. So the other 4 guys aren't going to effective on the target, how many times to does a marine squad have to all sit there while the one guy with a ML tries to kill a tank their bolters can't hurt? Sometimes you just gotta make those kinds of choices, and taking the EML gives me that option, as opposed to not having it at all (Step 1: open can. Step 2: squish contents!). Again, my experience chimes in and tells me that it's not a waste to fire missiles at MEQs since you are nearly guaranteed to hit and wound, with the added benefit of instant death!

While the missile launcher on the exarch may seem like a deal (and in a vacume, it is) you are tagging on 4 ablative wounds at 37 (I think) points each. That isn't cheap. As much as I hate to argue with someone who's obviously made up their mind, you may want to consider something a bit different. Take one reaper squad as an anti troop choice and one as a wild card unit. The anti troop unit can either be 5 regular reapers with no exarch or 4 with an exarch that has crack shot and a tempest launcher. Then take a wild card squad that only has 2 regular reapers and the exarch with the missile launcher and fast shot. If you need to bump up the squad slightly, have your back field farseer join the unit to help soak up incoming fire. In either case, this cuts down on the points you are expending on reapers that are not doing their job and frees you up some points to spend on another troop choice.

Really I am not set on having the Farseers ride with the DAs. I do know that whoever they are with, they will be standing BEHIND THEM! I think it'd be hard to screw up using them in this army, they can help everyone out! The little voice of experience also says that things are going to get close so I will very likely have range for Doom, even in the back field. It's there for when I see the pending assaults...

Well, your farseers need to be with someone. If you leave them out of coherency with a unit, then they become units on their own. This means that they can be singled out and shot at. So you are going to need to put them with one of your squads. One thing to note is that both guide and doom can be used from inside a transport. This means that the avengers could get out and the farseer(s) could stay in the serpents (just a thought). Putting them with the scouts or the reapers means that doom is going to be a waste since its going to take half the game (or longer) for an enemy to close within range. In the mean time, your avengers and scorpions may well be running around getting into trouble without the support of the farseers. The other thing to consider is that the only back field unit you have that really benefits from doom is the scouts. The scouts wound on 4+ so they have a 50% chance of wounding and doom adds 25% to get you up to 75%. If you need a 3+ to wound (reapers at T4 targets), doom only adds an extra 22%. If you wound on a 2+ (scatter lasers at T3 or T4 targets) doom adds 13% extra damage. So in the end, if you want to really put doom to use, you'll need to keep it on whatever the dire avengers and the striking scorpions are attacking. Keeping a doom in the back field to put on things that are getting close to your rear fire base isn't really worth it...particularly when you could be spending the points on another troop unit.

Regardless, if you don’t' like guardians, there is always the options of jetbikes or dire avengers on foot. Either would fill the void. Foot avengers might even be the best idea since that unit could me a good mid field unit for your farseers to hang out in.

Guardians just die way way to easily and I'd want to take them in big squads if I did at all. 6 Guardians standing around nursing a single BS3 heavy weapon is not my idea of a good use of points. Since I am already considering a 3rd squad of DA for larger games I may just take a smaller squad on foot as my 3rd troop option instead of the Rangers.

As much as I hate to argue with someone who's obviously made up their mind, you may want to consider something a bit different.

Magnets my friend, magnets! I really think that the best arguments I've heard for the Tempest Launcher don't take into account that there is an entire game unfolding with multiple units of all types on both sides that are moving around and with terrain etc. You don't get the prefect shot every turn. What if for one turn all I have line of sight to are Armor 12+ vehicles? Well then you could say my entire unit of Dark Reapers are a waste then because they aren't shooting anything! Frankly under the current 'dex, "something a bit different" is taking the EML. Hey if I'm wrong, then it's an easy magnetized weapon swap!

Putting them with the scouts or the reapers means that doom is going to be a waste since its going to take half the game (or longer) for an enemy to close within range. In the mean time, your avengers and scorpions may well be running around getting into trouble without the support of the farseers. The other thing to consider is that the only back field unit you have that really benefits from doom is the scouts. The scouts wound on 4+ so they have a 50% chance of wounding and doom adds 25% to get you up to 75%. If you need a 3+ to wound (reapers at T4 targets), doom only adds an extra 22%. If you wound on a 2+ (scatter lasers at T3 or T4 targets) doom adds 13% extra damage. So in the end, if you want to really put doom to use, you'll need to keep it on whatever the dire avengers and the striking scorpions are attacking. Keeping a doom in the back field to put on things that are getting close to your rear fire base isn't really worth it...particularly when you could be spending the points on another troop unit.

Some good points here, but plans based on MathHammer tends to fall apart when it comes time to hit the table top. Yeah, using the Farseer with squad A gives a higher % then squad B, but it may be squad B's weapons that I really need to hit this turn! Either way even the lowest % bonus to hit is better than no bonus. As for Doom... Well Doom has a 24" range. Tables are 48" across. Given deployment zones and objectives, by the end of the first player's 2nd movement phase I will be within 24" of something, by his plan or mine.



Okay ya'll are making me think here to defend my arguments. That last part really got me visualizing a battle unfolding on the table. Generally speaking my planning is tending to focus on the mid-field fight at the moment.

Swordbreaker wrote:Guardians just die way way to easily and I'd want to take them in big squads if I did at all. 6 Guardians standing around nursing a single BS3 heavy weapon is not my idea of a good use of points. Since I am already considering a 3rd squad of DA for larger games I may just take a smaller squad on foot as my 3rd troop option instead of the Rangers.

Guardians in cover die at exactly the same rate as dire avengers do. T3, 4+ cover save, 1 wound. The only difference there is avengers are 12 points each and guardians are 8. But again, the purpose of the guardians isn't to nurse a BS3 heavy weapon (by the way missile launchers take care of that BS problem for the most part) but to nurse an objective.

Magnets my friend, magnets! I really think that the best arguments I've heard for the Tempest Launcher don't take into account that there is an entire game unfolding with multiple units of all types on both sides that are moving around and with terrain etc. You don't get the prefect shot every turn. What if for one turn all I have line of sight to are Armor 12+ vehicles? Well then you could say my entire unit of Dark Reapers are a waste then because they aren't shooting anything! Frankly under the current 'dex, "something a bit different" is taking the EML. Hey if I'm wrong, then it's an easy magnetized weapon swap!

Not quite sure what you mean by magnets. However in regards to the tempest launcher, the beauty of it is that you don't need the perfect shot. It's a barrage weapon...you don't even need line of sight for it. So far in 5th edition I have yet to ever have a turn where my reapers didn't have anything to shoot at (although in dawn of war missions they do miss a turn of shooting when they move onto the board). The thing is that very few things actually block line of sight anymore so if you give them a decent position (preferably elevated) it’s very very rare that they can't see most of the field. And even if they can't see a target, the tempest launcher doesn't have to...and with crack shot, you don't care if the target is in cover either. On several occasions (in 5th edition) I've wiped out 8-10 man squads with just the tempest launcher. It's hard to ignore that kind of fire power even if it is a "perfect shot" situation. Even in less than optimal situations, the tempest launcher exarch still averages about 5-6 kills a turn (and that number comes from experience rather than calculation).

Oh and the perfect shot for it shows up when you bust open a transport and you can lob 2 templates into the tightly packed troops that just fell out. That or if you can shoot at deep strikers.

Some good points here, but plans based on MathHammer tends to fall apart when it comes time to hit the table top. Yeah, using the Farseer with squad A gives a higher % then squad B, but it may be squad B's weapons that I really need to hit this turn! Either way even the lowest % bonus to hit is better than no bonus. As for Doom... Well Doom has a 24" range. Tables are 48" across. Given deployment zones and objectives, by the end of the first player's 2nd movement phase I will be within 24" of something, by his plan or mine.

Obviously you will have to do what makes the most sense on the battlefield. That goes without saying. However what the math hammer does tell you is where the farseer is going to give you the most gains. There is no point in dooming something you are not going to shoot at...that would just be stupid. You doom what needs to die obviously. However if your farseer is in a forward position, you'll be in position to doom more targets and if you doom the targets your avengers or scorpions are going after, then you will see the most gains from your farseers power. However, not knowing what is going to happen on the battlefield where do you think is the best place to put your farseer? Should he go in the place where the math hammer suggests he will be of the most use and then move him later as battle field conditions dictate? Or should he go somewhere that the math hammer doesn't say is the best and then move him later as battle field conditions dictate? Obviously there will be some concerns about the farseer's safety included in that as well, but for your initial game plan if you don't think that the safety issue trumps the effecitveness issue then I can't see a reason not to put him in a position that will allow him to support the avengers. Use that information as you will.

In practice, I find that my back field farseer is almost never in range to use doom. Your experience may vary *shrug* so do what makes sence for your battle field conditions but with 2 units of back field reapers, I wouldn't expect much in the way of infantry to get that close to you.

Okay ya'll are making me think here to defend my arguments. That last part really got me visualizing a battle unfolding on the table. Generally speaking my planning is tending to focus on the mid-field fight at the moment.

Good to hear you are thinking, that's the point of all this. From the sounds of things, it looks like most of the action will be happening in mid field anyway so that's where you should be concentrating.

Guardians in cover die at exactly the same rate as dire avengers do. ... But again, the purpose of the guardians isn't to nurse a BS3 heavy weapon (by the way missile launchers take care of that BS problem for the most part) but to nurse an objective.

From what I have seen there is even less terrain on the boards in 5E than in 4E. Cover saves got better, but it really depends on what sort of terrain is available where you play your games. You can't depend on setting everything up in terrain nor having a convenient objective in it. However that's a really minor point to my counter-argument, and I agree it is a good plan to use your Guardians like that. Especially with the EML platform to negate their BS AND give you good range from the back of the board to anything.

My real argument against Guardians is this: I do not like playing large horde style troop units, spending lots of money on the figures and spending lots of time paint large repetitive looking hordes. So that's three major strikes right there. Even my IG army is a Grenadier list, based off Stormtroopers, not hordes of Guardsmen. I've tried Guardians long ago when I used to have Eldar, I didn't like them then I don't like them now.

Not quite sure what you mean by magnets.

Neodymium Magnets= www.kjmagnetics.com These are tiny magnets people use in their models. I use them liberally. You can get them small enough to even fit in the arm/wrist of a model. People use them to making swapping parts easier or so they can take apart their models. You can do weapon swaps really easy this way without ever having to tear apart a model ever again. Swap out a backpack for a jump pack, bolt pistol for plasma pistol, change weapons on your vehicles, change entire sponsons out, hold hinged doors closed, make canopies removable, make dreadnoughts come part for storage or be more poseable, the list goes on and on. In this case I specifically mean I can make the Exarch so I can swap out weapons between games without any need to repaint or reglue anything.

In practice, I find that my back field farseer is almost never in range to use doom. Your experience may vary *shrug* so do what makes sence for your battle field conditions but with 2 units of back field reapers, I wouldn't expect much in the way of infantry to get that close to you.

I'll have to see what happens I guess. I saw the dual Doom/Guide Farseers as really great tactically flexible buffing units. Even in the backfield something might infiltrate or deep strike in.


I'm still pondering a few changes. I've been looking at some of the Special characters, possibly dropping a Farseer for one of them. Maybe taking a smaller Scorpion squad and drop the Rangers to get in a larger 3rd Dire Avenger squad, I'd love to have it in a 3rd Waver Serpent too, possibly with EMLs. I say that because while I am making a 1750 points list, I may need to jump up to 1850 or down to 1500 and I want to avoid amassing a huge collection of yet another army.

Swordbreaker wrote: From what I have seen there is even less terrain on the boards in 5E than in 4E.

That's entirely dependent on where you play, who you play, and what you have available. I target 25% board coverage for terrain (I actually measure out 1/4th of the board, cover it in terrain and then spread the terrain around the board).

My real argument against Guardians is this: I do not like playing large horde style troop units, spending lots of money on the figures and spending lots of time paint large repetitive looking hordes. So that's three major strikes right there.

Ahhh, well personal prefrence is certainly a very valid reason for not including something in your army. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of how they could be useful and good. If they do not fit your style though, they should be left out.

As a side note, I had a lot of fun poseing my 4th edition guardians. They were kind of a pain to paint in all those pieces, but it did allow for some fun poses.

In this case I specifically mean I can make the Exarch so I can swap out weapons between games without any need to repaint or reglue anything.

Got ya. Well give one of your exarchs a tempest launcher (modeled or not) and give it a try once or twice. See how it goes.

I'm still pondering a few changes. I've been looking at some of the Special characters, possibly dropping a Farseer for one of them.

Eldrad is very good for his point cost. I've never seen Yuriel be very useful (although I've seen him in a fair number of games). Other than that, Karandas seems like the only other choice that would make any sence in your army. He's a beast in hand to hand, but it's often tricky getting him there if your opponent is on guard.

I'd love to have it in a 3rd Waver Serpent too, possibly with EMLs.

An interesting point of note, the wave serpent with missile launchers is the only skimmer I would suggest putting the under slung shuriken cannon on anymore. The thing is that if you fire the missile launchers in plasma mode, they are defensive weapons. This means that you can move 12" and still fire both weapons. Just something to keep in mind.