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In 4th ed I ran a deamons bomb called the christmas tree list It went something like this...

1850pts

Flying nurlge DP with man reaper - Infantry clearer
2 X 8 Blood letters - power armor clearer
3 X 7 Plague Bearers - Tar pits, or horde grinder
8 khorne bikers - summoning platform
1 oblit - distraction, table quarter holder, deepstriking melta gun
1 indirect defiler - distraction, formation spreader
10 furies - Alpha strike, transport killer
8 chosen deamon icon - summoning platform
Bloodthirster - Character killer, tank hunter

It was very successful, won tons of tournies including top spot at the Necro Indy GT.

The main lynch pin was the bikes. At 1850, you simply can't kill the bikes quick enough before they dropped their load.

In 5th, the same holds true. Bikes are even cheaper but are usually overlooked for things like raptors, which are cheaper thus hittier, or termis which are roughly the same points and a ton more hitty.

That said bikes have a bunch of advantages which don't show up on paper, which is why you didn't see them much in 4th. Also, why I never saw another list anything like the one I was running.

I think they have a similar role in 5th. They are not a smash you up unit unless you need them. They are however a killer deamon summoning platform, a mobile harrassing fire base and a hammer when one in needed.

In the new codex you can replace most of the units for about the same points.

Anyway, this is a long post, but my question is do you think you could do a stong build with some combination of deamons a big bike unit and two bike based HQs?

My initial thought is 8 to 10 bikes, MOT, and 2 tzeentch lords with deamon weapons. Plus units of daemons in reserves and a greater deamon ready to jump out of the bike unit. Also Oblits work really well with this list as they can summon off the icon. Alternatively, it's a great spot for lash or warp time sorcerers. Plus you also have wind of chaos and special weapons on the bikes.

The other interesting point is that lords and deamon are fearless, and unlike the old codex there is no rule to keep characters from joining deamon units. This is a strong combo that is often overlooked.

Again it seems expensive on paper but within 12" your talking 16 twin linked bolter shots, 4 plasma gun shots, 2D6 S4 AP3 shots on bs 5 and you will likely be able to charge. The charge is another 24 S4 attacks and 6+2D6 S4 power weapons. And everyone in the squad is 3+/5+I or better.

If you shoot and charge a unit, I can't imagine much could hold up to it. Not to mention all the support that is going to pop out.

Pete

There are 2 major problems to the Daemon Bomb approach under the new rules:

1) No assaulting after summoning. Your (vastly inferior) generic daemons come gibbering from the warp, and must stand about drooling until next turn. As they aren't Deep Striking, they don't even get to Run, and so remain in the lovely "destroy us with templates" pattern they land in.

2) The new CC resolution rules hurt. You can't consolidate into a new combat. You will get counter-charged by larger units, meaning more of your daemons will die. Your bikers are more vulnerable to decisive early assaults.

And you probably don't want to join your Lords to the daemon units, except when dealing with scrub units - orks, for example, will slaughter a bunch of your daemons, forcing your Lord to take "I'm not scared of you!" wounds, which is bad.

ACtually, CSM Lesser Demons do get to assault after summoning, they just can't move, IIRC.

Bikes still suffer from GW's obsession with overcosting MEQ bikes. Before, they delivered hammer units of demons, now they're delivering support units. they're not a hammer themselves, and even with MoT they're just not durable enough to stick around. Yeah, you can probably turboboost and summon some demons, but that combo won't win games any more.

Bikes are still reasonably useful as mobile melta platforms and a competent if expensive assault squad, but realistically are inferior to Raptors in terms of everything but the ability to turboboost.

Actually, does anything prevent "Lesser Demons" from running on the turn they are summoned? It merely says they can't move.

if it says they cant move wouldnt you think running was considered a move?

Actually, to be more correct, the codex says that the daemons can't do anything that movement phase. As running is done during the shooting phase, shouldn't the daemons be able to run as normal? I know they can assault, because it explicitly states that they can.

Perhaps the daemon bomb armies will make a comeback with this. I count a 36" threat range for daemons coming off turbo boosting icons...

Polonius wrote:ACtually, CSM Lesser Demons do get to assault after summoning, they just can't move, IIRC.

Bikes still suffer from GW's obsession with overcosting MEQ bikes. Before, they delivered hammer units of demons, now they're delivering support units. they're not a hammer themselves, and even with MoT they're just not durable enough to stick around. Yeah, you can probably turboboost and summon some demons, but that combo won't win games any more.

Bikes are still reasonably useful as mobile melta platforms and a competent if expensive assault squad, but realistically are inferior to Raptors in terms of everything but the ability to turboboost.

Good catch. Honestly, the new CSM annoyed me so much that I didn't buy the codex, and my memory is flawed. (I don't recall the last time I saw someone take the lesser daemons.)

Running after summoning is an interesting spin on the rules.

Pdeflorio-Out of curiosity, with the role you have sketched out for your bikers, have you considered taking the Nurgle icon? As long as you are turbo boosting around, the T6 is going to do a lot more to keep you intact than a 5++ will.

Also, given the bikers' intended role in close combat, you might also want to consider switching the bike lords over to Nurgle as well. The Tzeentch weapon is oriented towards shooting, while the Nurgle daemon weapon is extremely flexible in close combat: 4+ to wound anything T5 or higher, and 4+ with re-rolls against T4 or less, thanks to the change to poisoned weapons in the 5th edition book.

It's not a spin on the rules, it's the rules:

"Once deployed, the Daemons cannot do anything else in that turn's Movement phase, but after that they are free to act as normal (they can Assault in the same turn that they enter the game).

This applies to both Greater Daemons and Lesser Daemons.

Remember as well that Daemons won't roll for scatter, and can use an Icon even if the Icon bearer is embarked in a vehicle.

Daemons work really well in combination with Terminators and Obliterators, providing a cover save, or locking down any troops that might assault the Obliterators or shoot the Terminators.

Unfortunately you can't pull off this type of list quite as easily from an FOC standpoint, since you can't use the daemons to fill compulsory slots. That dilutes the bomb and the backup units quite a bit.

I also wouldn't use MoT on bikes in 5ed -- turbo boost is a cover save now so you get no major benefit from the high price tag. MoN, maybe, except you gotta pray the icon doesn't fail a key save. I think glory is a better bet, that way morale is less of an issue.

Also adding terminators and oblits as part of the bomb would be ideal and a greater daemon seems like a nice addition as you mention.

Will it absolutely crush other armies? Probably not but it it is the only chaos build that even remotely interests me.

Alpharius Walks wrote:Pdeflorio-Out of curiosity, with the role you have sketched out for your bikers, have you considered taking the Nurgle icon? As long as you are turbo boosting around, the T6 is going to do a lot more to keep you intact than a 5++ will.

Also, given the bikers' intended role in close combat, you might also want to consider switching the bike lords over to Nurgle as well. The Tzeentch weapon is oriented towards shooting, while the Nurgle daemon weapon is extremely flexible in close combat: 4+ to wound anything T5 or higher, and 4+ with re-rolls against T4 or less, thanks to the change to poisoned weapons in the 5th edition book.

It's a good question, and it depends a lot on what you are trying to accomplish.

I personally think the nurgle deamon weapon and the tzeentch deamon weapon are the best for pure infantry clearing.

Slaanesh is great for kill non monsterous creatures but so is the basic powerfist, and a warp time sorcerer is probably better.

Anyway, With Tzeentch you basically get 2D6 attacks in the same turn as you can use it out of combat. So he is as hitty as the khorne guy but a ton more reliable. Also, something not to be over looked is that you get a 4+ save against the wound if you roll a one for attacks. The 4+ also makes him more resilient against the attacks you are really worried about (aka powerfists). Plus you can use it out of combat which allows you to play a harrassing roll.

With the thought of using them like a harrassing role you are in a situation of not turbo boosting and instead shooting and thus being shot. Even in 5th ed high strength weapons (which usually come with low APs) are the best way to get rid of bikes as they are on the front lines, not shielded by troops and probably in the open to get a good summon off.

Also you are likely to have times where you are waiting around if your summon roles take longer than they should. For these reasons I think the best mark is Tzeentch.

That said if you are looking for a meat seeking missile where you fly straight up the board bash into a unit and summon from there, nurgle lords are probably your best bet.

As for nurgle bikes. I haven't tied them yet, but T5 3+ save is pretty resilient against basic weapons and basic attack. Toughness 6 would make a better summoning platform and anchor in hth, but then you are pretty committed to get them into hth. Which is not always the best place for them. A lot of times if you are running multiple summoning units and you end up with a split reserve roll, redeploying the bikes means you can redeploy a different assault.

On a similar thread I used a nurgle lord on a palanquin coming out of a land raider the other day. We was a terror. Man do I miss the rune of chaos though... And what a crappy time for chaos to lose the concept of retnues... The nurgle deamon weapon is killer against monstrous creatures, and you get to reroll 4+ to wound against more troops.

winterman wrote:Unfortunately you can't pull off this type of list quite as easily from an FOC standpoint, since you can't use the daemons to fill compulsory slots. That dilutes the bomb and the backup units quite a bit.

I also wouldn't use MoT on bikes in 5ed -- turbo boost is a cover save now so you get no major benefit from the high price tag. MoN, maybe, except you gotta pray the icon doesn't fail a key save. I think glory is a better bet, that way morale is less of an issue.

Also adding terminators and oblits as part of the bomb would be ideal and a greater daemon seems like a nice addition as you mention.

Agreed. I was really bummed when I saw daemons no longer filled your troop requirements. I understand why they did it but your right, by the time you equip 2 troop squads that are really useful assault based squads youre down 5 to 6 hundred points.

Also the icon isn;t a big deal as it only costs 10 points to give both the lords icons. This can be super useful if you split the lords off, which I often do. (Think 10 bikes with crack grenades hit a tank in hth. Chaos lord assaults the troops with the daemons he just summoned.)

Anyway, this list is less competative at lower points but gets nasty as the points get higher and the synergies start to kick in. Fro somethin like 'ard boyz you could easily run this unit, 6 oblits, 10 termies, 2 nurgle troop squads in rhinos and like 5 units of 8 daemons.

And for all the lesser deamon neigh sayers out there, I think lesser daemons got a bad rap at the end of 4th. In 5th they were a lot more useful on the table than I expected. They pretty much always get the charge the turn they come in. They are the cheapest troop choice. Summoning gives them a lot of speed. They can charge a unit 15" away, (more if you are clever and attach the lords bike to the edge of the squad before charging). Plus they have invulnerable saves and they are fearless, so are great tar pits against a lot of units that would normally carve through a standard CSM unit.

The two magic numbers for lesser daemons are 8 and 20. Via deepstrike rules at 8 you get 2" rings, and 20 you get 3".

The greater daemon is an awesome deal no matter how you slice it.

Pete

I lost interest in Chaos bikes when we lost the extra attack and the ability to take the expert riders vet skill.

My old Emperors Children list relied heavily on the performance of its bike squad to get Damonetts in and strike a decisive blow in HTH.

Too bad that combo is lost to the warp until the next edition.

Agreed. I was really bummed when I saw daemons no longer filled your troop requirements. I understand why they did it but your right, by the time you equip 2 troop squads that are really useful assault based squads youre down 5 to 6 hundred points.

I think you can mitigate it somewhat by using small cult troops. Like say 2 5-6man noise marines with blastmaster or blasters (great home plate holders that can still move and fire if needed) or small bezerker or plague squads in rhinos (pure objective holder, harassers, perhaps antitank if using the PMs with meltas). Still not ideal but can be usefull in 5ed for objective grabbing as well a alternate locations to bring in the lessers or a greater.

Also the icon isn;t a big deal as it only costs 10 points to give both the lords icons. This can be super useful if you split the lords off, which I often do. (Think 10 bikes with crack grenades hit a tank in hth. Chaos lord assaults the troops with the daemons he just summoned.)

MoT on HQs is fine (as is a personal Icon, which I did not comment on but I do think it worth adding to the HQs). i just think MoT pretty expensive on the actual bike squad for what you get. That 40 point 5+ save will not really help a bike squad that is hanging out to dry for whatever reason (mass fire from a decently shooty army won't be hindered that much by a 5+ inv) and hopefully when that happens cover is available or you had turbo boosted. Morale on the other hand, those bikes are bound to take moral tests, likely at a large modifier if they get into assault. The reroll makes them much more reliable imho.

Mr.Freeze wrote:Actually, to be more correct, the codex says that the daemons can't do anything that movement phase. As running is done during the shooting phase, shouldn't the daemons be able to run as normal? I know they can assault, because it explicitly states that they can.

Perhaps the daemon bomb armies will make a comeback with this. I count a 36" threat range for daemons coming off turbo boosting icons...

I have seen demon-bomb armies do very very well against good players with good lists. especially khorne demon-bomb armies.

Even though SLD's and SGD's can Assault the turn they are summoned, just have no movement, giving them a Run move during the shooting phase would negate the ability to assault that same turn, wouldn't it?

Yeah all run would do is help if the daemons arrive before an assault can be lined up -- like say to spread out or take cover or some such.

That in itself can be handy if you're facing troops like Orks. You land the Daemons and spread them out so that the Orks will have to assault them first. The Orks pile in and the Daemons get their wacks before being pummeled. In the following turn you wander up with your template weapons and burn the Orks. Similarly they're great to land in front of Terminators and Obliterators (and Havocs, etc) to give these units a cover save that they otherwise would not have.

Jayden63 wrote:I lost interest in Chaos bikes when we lost the extra attack and the ability to take the expert riders vet skill.

My old Emperors Children list relied heavily on the performance of its bike squad to get Damonetts in and strike a decisive blow in HTH.

Too bad that combo is lost to the warp until the next edition.

Bikers no longer get +1 attack from the bike, but are now able to use two hand weapons for +1 attack, like they couldn't before. Nothing prevents this now.