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Kilkrazy wrote:Overall the rules are an improvement.

Agreed. They're much better than 4th.

That said, I don't entirely like TLOS. But to my credit, I showed no shame in adapting by threading Ordnance through windows in my most recent Apocalypse game. Imperial Basilisks in battery are a fearsome thing!

Phoenix wrote:One question...why is true line of sight such a hard thing for people to deal with?

Many of us liked to play 40k as an "eye in the sky" game with fancy 3-D counters.

Huh?

Rules-wise, 5th is a *lot* better than 4th. It is much clearer and tighter, although they are not perfect. There are still loopholes, but they are fewer and smaller. So I take that as a clear improvement.

And what is most interesting is that the new rules correspond quite well to the older FAQs.

What's amusing is how it's very much like how you roll to-hit with multi-color dice.

yakface wrote:
I think 5th edition is a better game in each and every major aspect of the rules.

[SNIP]

Fifth edition is just a better game all-around.

Generally agreed. 5th plays faster, better and, smoother than 4th, which did a passable job of compiling the various Trial Rules from 3rd into something semi-coherent. Yes, there are nits (I'm not sold on how KPs are in the rulebook), but not nearly the problems from before.

I'm reading all the hand-wringing about HtH in 5E, and I don't see the problem. If you have numbers of guys, then the point would be to have enough of them to kill the other guys. If they're not getting the job done, despite overwhelming weight of numbers, isn't that, by definition, failure?

5E allows pretty much all models to fight. You can't kill models in BtB to prevent them from getting their attacks. That is a huge benefit compared to 3E.

And you don't get the ability to move into other enemy units, to deny them a chance to shoot.

So you don't get to tarpit with large, crappy units? Why is that a bad thing? 40k is supposed to be a lethal environment. HtH is supposed to be decisive.

If you want to tie an enemy model up, then you need to orchestrate something with multiple units working together.

Refine your tactics. Don't blame the rules.

Redbeard wrote:And, yet, winning combat is based on counting models, not unit's strength. A 200 point kroot unit that loses 5 kroot has lost 17% of it's effective strength. A 200 point terminator unit that loses one terminator has lost 20% of its effective strength. If your assertion that everything is unit based was correct, the kroot would have won this fight. But, the terminators did, and convincingly, by 4 wounds.

That seems entirely right, because 40k5 cares about the results of actually killing stuff, rather than a number of guys standing around and cheering. If the Kroot were kicking ass, then that would show up in the actual kills scored.

Consider 5 Assault Terminators at maximum coherency charged by equal points unit of 50 Conscripts (under the assumption that it's better to charge than be charged). By mathhammer, on average, those 5 Assault Terminators will have 15 attacks, score 10 hits, and kill 9 Conscripts. Let's assume that the Termies roll badly, so they only kill 5 Conscripts. That leaves 45 Conscripts to swing back, for 90 attacks, 45 hits, 15 wounds, 2.5 Termies killed. Let's round up and assume 3 Termies died.

Under 5th Edition, the 2 Termies won handily by 5-3 = 2 wounds, so the Ld5 Conscripts test on a 3+, and fail. If the Termies run them down, oh well. The Conscripts killed 120 pts of Termies, which is far more than what one would expect in a normal game. Hell, they probably earned the remaining 80 pts just by giving 4+ cover saves to more valuable units behind them.

So what's the problem?