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What I learned. My first round was against Hoard Ork. They had 180 boys, mad doc, ghaz, 45 loots, and 2 Zzapp guns. There were just too many for me to deal with! Now realizing that they can still field 180boyz in 1750 (and Orks just won the last GT) I was thinking I would really need to be ready for this. My previous Squads had a melta and heavy flamer... I had adjusted so they have one flamer, one heavy flamer, and one combi flamer. The idea here is that on turn 3 when the hoard is getting close I can unload on them with enough flamer power to take them down. While walking to me they have to deal with the 3 heavy bolters and 1 psycanon from my inquisitor as well as the bolters from the sisters and the exorcists just to get in range for the flamers. In an objective type mission the Rhinos could get me where I want to go and the flamers could do some damage.

I also noticed that the Seraphim, while good vs orks, easily get beat if they are outnumbered by the greenskins. I have given them an extra flamer in the form of a Bazier of holy fire (will be modeled as a burning bra for gaks and giggles). With the living saint jumping around with them thats 4 flamers in that unit.

My list does very well vs Monstrous creatures so I am not really worried about them as 3 exorcists kill them fast. (round 3 ard boyz tabled a nidzilla list except for some gaunts that had without number and a single zoanthrope by turn 5)

Tanks have the exorcists to contend with as well as the 2 roaming evisorators. (round 2 screwed up a tank heavy list with the evisorators/exos)

Deep strikers have to worry about the Mystics.

What thoughts do you guys have. Are 3 units of 10 sisters enough?

1 Canoness (HQ) @ 131 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Eviscerator
Book of Saint Lucius
Cloak of Saint Aspira
Jump Pack
Mantle of Saint Ophelia

1 Saint Celestine (HQ) @ 201 Pts
Armour of St.Katherine; Ardent Blade

3 Units of:
9 Battle Sisters Squad (Troops) @ 216 Pts
Bolter (x7); Heavy Flamer (x1); Flamer (x1)
1 Veteran Sister Superior
Bolter-Flamer
Book of Saint Lucius
1 Rhino APC @
Storm Bolter
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armour
Searchlight

6 Seraphim Squad (Fast Attack) @ 218 Pts
2 Bolt Pistols (x4); 2 Hand Flamers (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Veteran Sister Superior
Brazier of Holy Fire (x1); Eviscerator; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
Book of Saint Lucius

Three units of:
1 Exorcist (Heavy Support) @ 135 Pts
Exorcist Missile Launcher

1 Ordo Malleus Inquisitor (Elites) (om) @ 147 Pts
Psycannon
2 Mystic
Laspistol & CC Weapon
1 Sage
Laspistol & CC Weapon
3 Warrior
Heavy Bolter Servitor (x3); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

Starting Faith: 9

Models in Army: 52

Total Army Cost: 1750

You need to take the flamers out of your Battle Sister Squads and give them meltaguns. 3 Exorcists does not provide enough anti-tank.

Seraphims are not what they used to be.

The tarpit Canoness isn't either.

Saint Celestine is still horrible.

I'd rather have retributor heavy bolters than exorcists these days.

stjohn70 wrote:You need to take the flamers out of your Battle Sister Squads and give them meltaguns. 3 Exorcists does not provide enough anti-tank.

3 exorcists, the evisorator cannoness, and the Seraphim evisorator are anti tank. I ran melta guns with out the combi flamer... I could try with the combi flamer, melta gun, and the Heavy flamer.


I will fuss around with the points to make this work

Stelek wrote:Seraphims are not what they used to be.

The tarpit Canoness isn't either.

Saint Celestine is still horrible.

I'd rather have retributor heavy bolters than exorcists these days.

The Seraphims perfomed fine for me in all games but vs the Orks.... But there isn't a better option.

The canoness is not a tarpit. I agree. She needs to go around killing tanks and monstrous creatures... she can't handle a whole unit by herself anymore.

The living saint is awesome. She won me my last 2 games even though she died in one of them... How do you use her? I use her to constantly hit and run with a unit of Seraphim and draw my opponent into bad positions.

Retributors suck. They offer no anti tank and are only good vs Horde. Why wouldn't I want the Exorcist which could arguably be one of the best tanks in 5th ed as of now? 3 exorcists eat pretty much any unit that is not a horde. Sure they don't get "Shaken" if they get hit.... but range 36 vs range 48. I'll take the Exos any day

Guess you should play more.

Average 10 shots.
7 hit.
6 wound.
3 failed cover saves.
3 dead guys.

Yeah, that's eating units alive.

Living Saint is horrible, always has been. If she's winning you games, you aren't going to lose those games even if you take her off the board. Maybe you believe a S5 master-crafted weapon with faith is uber, I personally don't think much of it. Not for 200 freaking points.

Seraphim are easily gunned down by properly tuned 5th edition lists.

Retributors are heavy bolter devs with several key advantages over said unit, and it's still one of the best in the game. I'll take a wild guess that you've never run them. You say rets are bad but have a inquisitor retinue. Neat trick.

Canoness kills MC how exactly? Burning 2 faith so you are S8 and have a 2+ invulnerable? You can only dodge the 1 one time. Hell the Eviscerator isn't even Master-crafted. Man, you can't even kill a MC in a single round if you do hit.

Oh well. Play the list. I don't think it's very good.

Stelek wrote:Guess you should play more.

Average 10 shots.
7 hit.
6 wound.
3 failed cover saves.
3 dead guys.

Yeah, that's eating units alive.

Living Saint is horrible, always has been. If she's winning you games, you aren't going to lose those games even if you take her off the board. Maybe you believe a S5 master-crafted weapon with faith is uber, I personally don't think much of it. Not for 200 freaking points.

Seraphim are easily gunned down by properly tuned 5th edition lists.

Retributors are heavy bolter devs with several key advantages over said unit, and it's still one of the best in the game. I'll take a wild guess that you've never run them. You say rets are bad but have a inquisitor retinue. Neat trick.

Canoness kills MC how exactly? Burning 2 faith so you are S8 and have a 2+ invulnerable? You can only dodge the 1 one time. Hell the Eviscerator isn't even Master-crafted. Man, you can't even kill a MC in a single round if you do hit.

Oh well. Play the list. I don't think it's very good.

Actually the inquisitor is there for points filling cause I couldn't figure out what else to put there And they had the best support ability of the units I considered when combined with the exorcists they would sit near. There seem to be a lot of deamon GT lists and when the New Space Marine codex comes out there will be 3 Drop podding sternguard lists everywhere. I'd like the chance to spank the sternguard with an exorcist missile launcher if they get too close.

If I run 3 Units of Retributors (which I can and have, and DO have the models for since I have been testing every unit in the WH codex since March for this) I find they get shot up real fast in 5th. It could be because of the terrain at the stores I play at, but the 12 heavy bolters do not perform as well as 3 Exorcist launchers.

As for your math... where are your shooting? Don't waste Exo Shots at units in cover.

Lets do the same with the heavy bolters. vs toughness 4, 3+ saves (MEQ)
36 shots
24 hits
16 wounds
6 dead
Sure it works here... but this isn't the target for the Exos and is the same results they would get at a unit not in cover. Exos need to target monstrous creatures, terminators and other units with 2+ saves or toughness 4 multiple wounds. Not to mention Death companies and things with feel no pain like Plague marines. I guess you don't have very many competitive players where you play cause these are everywhere out here.

VS Monstrous creature toughness 6 3+ save(dakka fex)
36 shots
24 hits
8 wounds
2 unsaved wounds VS the Exos still getting six wounds....

The difference is the 189pt price tag of the retributors run properly vs the 135pt exorcist. The exorcists are more efficient, longer ranged, and save me ~150pts.

As for the Saint? she won't win combats by herself. But she will free up a unit you have that is charged. Seraphim and the saint are a counter charge unit to get your units out of a combat so they can shoot. they hit, then run then hit again. If you are loosing them, then you are throwing them at stuff they shouldn't hit or aren't softening up the targets first with other shooting. And no I don't think the Saint is Uber, I think she is over priced when compared to things like Ghaz, dante+corbs, Abbadon, and pretty much any character printed for a 4th/5th ed codex. I think she is better then another cannoness since she has hit and run and works well with the phim

Canonness kills MCs by getting into combat with them after they were hit by an exorcist and then smacking them with her evisorator. which you are correct... I missed the Master crafting and will have to add it. Most likely by dropping the Psycannon and sage from the inquisitor (also gaining the points to give my squads meltas instead of flamers which st john said. She is a clean up unit.

I hope you come to the Baltimore GT. Would be nice to get a game in with you so I can see what you mean. (I may seem defensive but I am not opposed to your changes. They just aren't supported by any of the 100+ games I have played with the list since March)

UPDATE: Dropping one sister and the book from the phim allowed me to get 3 meltaguns instead of flamers in the rhinos. It also allowed me to get master-crafted on my cannoness evisorator They don't need the book if they are with the Saint.

About all I get from that really long reply is Exorcists are good at killing MC.

Obvious isn't it? There are other ways to fighting and winning that do not require Exorcists, all of which I think are better than Exorcists.

There was alot of Exorcist spam at the LVGT. I ran heavy bolters instead.

I won all of my games. They'd have been even more lopsided if I'd run heavy bolter retributors instead of inquisitor retinues. Believe me, I was awfully tempted to run Sisters with retributors again but I had a theme and stuck with it.

I don't know where you play but getting cover saves when standing in the open is pretty damn easy, maybe that's the mark of my sucktastical playing group. Everyone has cover, always. lol

Stelek wrote:About all I get from that really long reply is Exorcists are good at killing MC.

Obvious isn't it? There are other ways to fighting and winning that do not require Exorcists, all of which I think are better than Exorcists.

There was alot of Exorcist spam at the LVGT. I ran heavy bolters instead.

I won all of my games. They'd have been even more lopsided if I'd run heavy bolter retributors instead of inquisitor retinues. Believe me, I was awfully tempted to run Sisters with retributors again but I had a theme and stuck with it.

I don't know where you play but getting cover saves when standing in the open is pretty damn easy, maybe that's the mark of my sucktastical playing group. Everyone has cover, always. lol

Yea... you guys have too much terrain if there is that much on the table. Or you are in perfect formation to get smacked with flamers. Post a list with the retributors. I would be interested in seeing how you would do it. Like I said I have the models and would run a test of if in the next few days (probably friday since school has started again and I have to lesson plan all week). If this was summer time I could play 2-3 games a day to get some better data. (and yes I did that this summer)

The point with the exorcists is that they:
1) get as many kills as the HBs for less points and have better range. (6 kills with out cover each) My Exos are taller then the Rets and on a hill get un-obscured shots all the time.
2) have longer range (48vs 36)
3) instant kill toughness 4 models people spam like nob bikers, plague marines, death company etc
4) are more mobile
5) can shoot the turn they come in for DoW (the rhinos have search lights)
6) Have an easier time killing models with higher toughness like avatars, C'tan, WraithLords, etc...

The HBs only outperform the exorcists when the models are in cover or are things my Battle sisters can handle.

Sure I'll post one for you.

I posted one here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/218202.page

We don't have too much cover.

We just generate cover saves for our units using the rules, bud.

Interesting questions. An emerging theory is that 'anti-tank' in 5th ed has to meet the test of AV14, the Landraider. If you can't meet that then you are not 'enough' anti-tank. AP1 is good, but you'll be needing 6s to glance. Melta is better for the extra d6 penetration. AV14 might not be commonly seen in your area; but is predicted to be a major element in GT, Aardboyz touranements.

Exorcist would be ever so much better if it also had a blast template weapon for use against Hordes.

Aren't Exorcists d6 shots a turn, not 6 shots a turn?

Cover saves: Gretchin in front of Lootas, Guard Conscripts in front of Guard. The notion of a 'self covering' army, everyone gets a 4+ for obscured target.

You are a high value AV13 target. Outranged by Fire Prisms, equal range by Lascannon, and there are AV14 Guard Tanks as well. Leman Rus or Landraider can still be effective after losing a weapon. Exorcist, no....

I think one of the WH armies at LVGT did well with 3 Exorcists. I think there's a Batrep involving the army on this website. So, it isn't that you CANT win with the Exorcist.

But, above examples show that IG, SM, Eldar and Necron (I forgot the Monolith), all have pretty common tanks that can give you trouble. The new Conversion Beamer Space Marines, may leave you hating life as well. I'd take the bet that 30 Lootas behind a unit of Gretchin are going to do more damage to your army, than your Exorcists will do to their army over course of the game.

Immolators-scary, Rhinos, not scary.

On the other hand, 3 Exorcists would scare my 5 Linebreaker Dreadnaughts....

mike

What about something like this?

Cannoness+Blessed weapon+melta bombs+bolt pistol+book=86
Retinue=5 celestians, one flamer, one heavy flamer, = 83+immolator + multimelta=168
total hq= 254

3 battlesisters squads at 10 each+sister supirior+book+melta gun+heavy flamer+rhino = 197
total=591

2 Dominion squads 6 sisters 4 flamers, +sistersuperior+book+immolator+multimelta=201
total=402

3 retributor squads 10 man + 4 HB= 170
total=501

total=1748

3 immolators with twin linked multimeltas. the +1 from AP 1 really makes multimeltas a threat even at over 12" to all vehicles. the 12 heavy bolters and the massive amounts of flamers will wilt hordes, and each sisters squad still has a melta gun for antitank even beyond the 3 multi-meltas.

It's not uber or anything, but I think this list would fare well in 5th.

Yes, a WH army placed 4th overall running the "standard" mech list with Canoness, Rhino squads, 2 Sera squads, & 3 Exorcists.

stjohn70 wrote:Yes, a WH army placed 4th overall running the "standard" mech list with Canoness, Rhino squads, 2 Sera squads, & 3 Exorcists.

Standard 4th edition list for a 4th edition tourney.

Saint Celestine is a wonderful model and is great for conversion work as well but she just is too expensive for what she does.

I agree with stjohn, Melta, Heavy Flamer is the way to arm troops sisters squads. I tried two flamers because I was afraid of horde orks but having a melta is nice.

Seraphim just just get killed to easily with true line of sight. I would drop the Seraphim and the jump cannons for a generic cannoness with bolter and book with celestian retinue with 2 melta guns in an immolator and either a 4th troop sisters squad or another immolator with 5 celestians with melta guns depending on how the points works out.

You need melta guns for killing av 14 tanks reliabily.

I would mount the Inquisitor in a land raider and have flamer or melta gun warriors, droping the Psycannon. Rather not have my anti deepstrike bubble out in the open to get shot and the 12 inch from the hull of the land raider for the firing unit makes your anti deepstrike bubble bigger.

Not sure about Retributor squads. You do bring up a good point Stelek. However they have a draw back of losing at least a turn of shooting in dawn of war missions walking onto the board. I still like my Exorcists.

Losing that turn is something I did (and do) often in many missions.

Being able to force your opponent to spread out?
Being able to deploy your army after his, but with 1 less turn AND he's farther away?

Dude, that's how you win 5th edition with a gunline army.