Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Now, I preface this with the warning that yes, the competitive capability of a list largely depends on it's general, and yes daemons aren't considered a particularly competitive army to begin with. I'm making the best of a fun army, and would like to see what I can do. Now, on to my list.

1997 POINTS



HQ

GUO - breath of chaos, cloud of flies, 195

Keeper of Secrets - Soporific Musk, Pavane of Slaanesh, Daemonic Gaze 260

Elite

3 flamers - 105

4 bloodcrushers - icon of chaos 185

4 Fiends - 120

Troops

10 bloodletters - 160

9 Nurgling Swarms - 117

10 plaguebearers - icon of chaos 175

10 pink horrors - changeling, bolt of tzeentch 185

Heavy

soul grinder - phlegm 160

soul grinder - phlegm 160

Daemon Prince - Iron Hide, Daemonic Gaze, mark of nurgle, cloud of flies, noxious touch - 175


3 T6 MCs, 2 AV13 walkers, and 18 T5 wounds (10 of which are scoring). I like this as a very tough list, and think it's in pretty good shape atm.
I'll undoubtedly save some of you some time, and pre-emptively bring up my concerns with the list as it stands.

-mech lists. with my only fast armor breaking in the form of the fiends (6 S5 rending attacks each on the charge, beasts), and the bolt in the horrors (a resounding 'meh' for effectiveness/reliability). the Soul Grinders are fleet, with 5 S10 on the charge (and S8 blast isn't the end of the world on orks/rhinos), as well as the 2 S6 MCs and the S5 MC. Obviously a half-competent general is going to keep his tanks the hell away from my assaults, or at the very least moving quickly.

-I only have 3 scoring units, and 1 of them I pretty much assume going in is completely hosed (poor bloodletters. you're too good to be allowed to live. ) The Pink Horrors are also not particularly resilient, but the plaguebearers pretty much garauntee me an objective (assuming I can prevent it being contested, of course). The amount of fire plaguebearers going to ground in cover can sustain is downright mean.

-The keeper, as he's built, is very pricey and not incredibly hard to kill. The logic behind his loadout is to get a MC deep into the enemy firebase with hit and run, lashing and gazing units on his way in/by. He can devastate virtually any medium model count elite unit (especially in power armor). but 4 wounds, T6, 4+ invuln doesn't keep you alive for long.

-KP missions. the flamers are a free KP, and the fiends and bloodletters aren't far behind. Unfortunately, increasing the model count of any of those would probably just be overkill. I've considered dropping the daemon prince so I can bump the bloodletters up to 12 or 15 or so, and split the plaguebearers and bump them to 2 groups of 7ish (whatever points allow obviously). This would help address the letters' KP issue, and my scoring, but would be a huge loss in terms of MC threats (saturation is an important issue for MC imho, same as for tanks)


Comments, criticisms, or general daemon army musings are welcomed. I'm open to, and strongly encourage, absolutely any input. Excluding of course "switch armies you stupid "

It isn't bad really. Seems a bit scattered all over the place, but at least you have some good unit selections.

Bloodletters are crap IMO. If marines had their stats, marines wouldn't sell.

I'd drop the bolt on the changeling unit. If you are going to bring this unit, it's meant to run after it deep strikes and try to get as much of that bull he does on as many enemy units as possible. Not shoot anybody.

Taking template hits after you land = dead unit, don't care what your save is...you're dead.

Fiends are really just 2 wound letters without power weapons that happen to have the ability to get into combat, roll a bunch of dice, and get beat down for their trouble anyway.

You have a few flamers, but really if you want to run a flamer heavy army you should run maximum flamers not halfsies.

Same with soulgrinders.

And MC.

Gotta focus hard if you want a competitive Demon army list, I don't think you are focusing hard enough.

Competitive daemon armies are actually quite possible - best general at the Vegas GT was a daemon player. That being said, I would tend to agree with stelek that you are a bit scattered in your list design. I do, however disagree when he says that bloodletters are crap. More than any army other than eldar, the units can't be viewed in a vacuum. Bloodletters are great if your opponent has other immediate threats to worry about. Unfortunately, your list looks a bit shy on other immediate threats.

Here are my thoughts (and take them at the price they are offered) on your choices. Bear in mind that it isn't a bad list by any stretch of the imagination - as long as you have a plan for every unit and a place for them in an overall plan, then you are probably good.

HQ

GUO - breath of chaos, cloud of flies, 195

love him

Keeper of Secrets - Soporific Musk, Pavane of Slaanesh, Daemonic Gaze 260

why both Pavane and Daemonic Gaze? If you pavane a unit into charge range, your daemonic gaze might allow him to remove models and get back out of charge range. Also, shooting in general with a fleeting close combat machine isn't always the best plan. This seems like an ideal example of being a bit scattered in design - is it combatty? Is it shooty? Is it a tactical advantage in movement?

I personally like the Keeper a bit cheaper - right now he is more expensive than a bloodletter. My typical setup is pavane, and musk. comes in at 245 and if I need any points at all I drop the pavane.

Elite

3 flamers - 105 I assume you use these in a suicide drop fashion? Shep likes that, I find them a bit too expensive. It can work though and it good for forcing your opponents to uncastle. Don't forget that the unit has shooting other than the flamer template for those kill point games

4 bloodcrushers - icon of chaos 185

I love bloodcrushers. Instead of icon I would recommend instrument. It is the cheapest upgrade you can give them and since the unit is so small wounds will wrap around a lot. That means you will have to throw wounds on the "special" model. If you take a cheap one, you can choose to throw extra wounds on that model and possibly save another 1 or even 2 bloodcrushers. Icons are great, but I like them in larger units better.

4 Fiends - 120

These guys are good, but I would like to see one or two more. They are pretty fragile, but you mentioned that you are likely to use them primarily against vehicles so they will probably be okay. I like taking more in order to use their hit and run ability to pinball from unit to unit but in order to do that, they have to survive a couple of rounds of combat.

Troops

10 bloodletters - 160

Good as long as you have something else for your opponent to want to shoot at. Your list seems like a fairly even mix of shooty vs. assaulty, which means that your shooting isn't enough to seriously deplete any enemy units so they can focus fire on the more immediate threats of assault units.

9 Nurgling Swarms - 117

Why? What do these guys do that a few more points of plaguebearers doesn't do better? They aren't scoring, there is no epidemius to get the nurgling buzz saw going. Are you going to spread them out to give a 4+ cover for units? Remember, if they can see over the units then they don't provide a cover save and these models are pretty low to the ground. are they going to tarpit something? They will lose combat by a lot and then pop due to combat resolution. My guess is that you are thinking of using these guys to pin and then move the bloodletters and bloodcrushers into charge range? even then, I don't think that they would be worth it in the context of the rest of your list. I think you might be better served with a small unit of plaguebearers to claim distant objectives and then just go to ground with them.

10 plaguebearers - icon of chaos 175

Awesome. A standard objective holding unit.I wouldn't complain to see it a bit larger.

10 pink horrors - changeling, bolt of tzeentch 185

Ask yourself if a unit of 10 horrors is any better than 2 units of 5. You can still combine fire on the same unit, but having a second unit allows you to shoot at a vehicle with your bolt of tzeentch and still have some firing at a different unit.

Heavy

soul grinder - phlegm 160

soul grinder - phlegm 160

awesome. a nice combination is to use the pavane to bunch units up before dropping a pie plate on them or moving a screening unit out of the way. don't forget that it isn't ordnance so you can still shoot your harvester.

Daemon Prince - Iron Hide, Daemonic Gaze, mark of nurgle, cloud of flies, noxious touch - 175

Why mark of nurgle over mark of tzeentch is it for the noxious touch? the gaze implies he is a ranged support shooter but noxious touch and grenades makes him assault. this is another unit that is a bit schizophrenic in design. If he is assaulty, may as well drop gaze and give him aura. If he is shooty drop mark of nurgle and give him mark of tzeentch and bolt instead.

Anyway, just some observations. If the list is working for you, don't change it cause some internet douchebags said their way was better A lot of daemon lists really conform to the players play style. Find yours and then make a list that matches it.

You've gotten some good advice so far...

I don't think your preface is valid. Despite numerous attempts to prove otherwise, current demon production in big tourneys seems at odds with your postulation.

I don't have a ton to add to Stelek and Somnicide's comments.

Are you going to suicide drop the GUO? If yes... you probably shouldn't, if no, then you are either going to be running or charging, no need for the breath.

if I was gonna spend 260 on a GD, it'd be a bloodthirster.

I agree with the fiends analysis. Its not a question of what they can do, its more of a question of what else that elite slot and that 120 points could be doing. They really got hurt by the 'defender reaction' change in 5th ed. If you want a unit that is there to kill tanks, you could drop half those points on some screamers in the wide open fast attack slots... elites are the strongest demon slot there is. I'd make your game plan revolve around what you buy here.

I don't like bloodletters.. I like plaguebearers and horrors. With a possible exception to 100+ demonettes with skarbrand. (which Somincide has promised he will field for my amusement one weekend)

nurgle DPs are cool. Especially in conjunction with double GDs, this guy is gonna be running, or charging, just gaze alone doesn't really make him a shooty prince. Either drop it, or go for a sniper prince.


Now get out there and despoil something!

well, I've put in another handful of 2k games with this list, and surprise surprise, it backs up a lot of what you guys have to say. I'll mention what's come up, and what looks like vague intentions for a couple units.

Nurglings:
I had been using them as portable cover for my woefully shootable bloodletters, but for some reason no one (myself included) had taken into consideration the physical space taken up by the nurglings. by RAW, covered ankles=in cover, but the slightest elevation/distance would render that moot, I suppose. They're actually awfully effective tarpits, though suffer the same issue virtually every daemon unit does. Very effective against elite units, poor value against sheer numbers (they'll hold an assault termie squad all afternoon, but boyz will eat them on the charge, doesn't matter who's). Beginning to look like my first of many cuts.

Keeper of Secrets:
I'm beginning to wonder why I put gaze on him to begin with. On paper, the decision was along the vein of "well, he's going to be shooting pavane, and gets a second shot as a MC anyway, might as well put it to use huh?". What I didn't take into account is that the gaze often defeats the point of the pavane, as like you said they'll just carve models off the side of whatever was supposed to be charging anyway. So that's gone. Pavane stays, but the more I use it, the more it starts looking like a run that will miss 1/2 the time. I'm not convinced I have the proverbial hang of it yet. Pull piddly little foes towards the keeper and/or his big bad buddies, or out of cover, or throw heavy weapons out of LOS? Though I am still considering replacing the keeper with a Thirster, for the improved usage on tanks and elite infantry. PS can I trade pavane for lash now please? What a ridiculous difference, considering us slaaneshi daemons taught the damn CSM how to do that in the first place!

THREAD DERAILED: funny story last weekend, my keeper single-handedly slew the remaining 10 boyz from a 30 boy mob, as well as 8 nobz, by hitting the side of their double-charge on plaguebearers and beating them by 1 wound, sweeping both units in one go. I10 has it's upsides. THREAD DE-DERAILED

Fiends:
I agree, more would be better, but I haven't the models at the moment (pathetic excuse, commence hiding in shame). As for their tank hunting role, a lot of the appeal to me is the sheer utility of this unit. I can hit transports like a torpedo, I can HnR through to the squishy insides of guardsmen/tau lines, and I can catch and chomp those pesky bikes. When making take all comers lists for tourneys, I tend to keep an eye out for multiple avenues of utility in my units. Which leads me to.....

Screamers:
An investment I have a tough time making, as they're instantly useless against tank-free armies. They're usually free KPs unless I make a serious point investment, too. Beyond that, deadly effective at what they do, definitely in the fight for my point allocation.

Daemon Prince
more schizophrenia on my part, sniper prince or drop the gaze. Though I must admit I still find prince+iron hide+gaze to be a good budget all-rounder for lower point games. About the sniper prince. I'm entirely unable to justify 30 points upgrading him from4++ save to a 3+/4++, am I alone in this assertion?

Pink Horrors
They're at a 10 model count, as that makes for a hell of a lot of anti-horde firepower on the drop (7.5 orks or 10 guardsmen out of cover) , which combined with the 10 4++ saves make for respectable survivability for the changeling, and what Stelek referred to as "that bull he does" They're not the worst objective holders around either. Splitting into two 5 man groups was my other direction of thought, but frankly my army is giving away enough free KP as it is. Though the split for double bolt is juicy...

Bloodletters
I'm on the verge of (blood)letting these guys go. I know full well I'm just not quite nailing their usage, as under circumstances where I COULD utilize them they cut appropriately bloody swaths through everybody. But, to be realistic, at the end of the day it doesn't matter why they're not functioning. Whether it's me or the rules, I can't seem to get the job done with reasonable additional resources.

Something else I thought I'd throw out here while I'm posting, what're some reliable ways to deal with hordes? I'm having a tough time cracking (in this case) the ork horde, more specifically the 20+ boy mobs. Throwing templates their way works wonders, but I can only do it for so long to so many squads before I have to take away the charge. Even bloodcrushers tend to get dragged down by that rediculous volume of attacks. Thoughts?


Anyway, after a weekend at my FLGS/vassal, I should have a revised list ready to post. I'd just edit it in over the old one, but I know how frustrating it is to read a thread after the fact and have everyone's carefully constructed criticisms be rendered useless when the list they refer to is gone like the wind.







Oh and Somnicide? I happen to BE one of those Internet Douchebags, so I tend to value their opinions overmuch
And how did I get so damned long-winded? I'll inexplicably blame it on the early morning

You can keep saying 'Demons are competitive, and look...they took the Vegas GT Best General award' and it'll still be .

People brought 4th edition lists, and got killed by a 4th edition list killer.

Note that people who brought anti-DS or 5th edition lists handed the demon armies their collective.

Please stop saying they are competitive, for goodness sake.

Stelek wrote:You can keep saying 'Demons are competitive, and look...they took the Vegas GT Best General award' and it'll still be .

People brought 4th edition lists, and got killed by a 4th edition list killer.

Note that people who brought anti-DS or 5th edition lists handed the demon armies their collective.

Please stop saying they are competitive, for goodness sake.

Ok, now this has just turned weird. You just brought this thread up from page 2 to post that you think demons are terrible again. You keep saying the same thing over and over, and I keep saying, lets just wait, and continue to see what tourney results say. Not just Vegas but Baltimore, Adepticon, etc.

There is something personal between you and the demons. I hate to call you on it, but it is a strange sight to see you operating with so much emotion about a game that you usually approach with logic. I think GW didn't make them the way you wanted them made, and you aren't going to forgive them for it.

I appreciate your thoughts. I am certainly a Stelek 'fan'. I think the effort you put out to help strangers on the internet far exceeds what just about anyone else is doing. But until these "5th edition lists" start showing up and proving you right, myself and other "demon believers" have the high ground. We can just point to the scoreboard...

Just a simple trick I had for ya. When trying to hold an objective with plague bearers. If you are the first unit to the objective, circle the objective with your squad so that you models bases ar just within three inches. this will keep any enamy models from entering the 3" mark. So as long as you are diligent about removing the correct models if you are assaulted, you can keep an objective from being contested, at least alittle longer. Try it out, worked well for the daemon players at my club.
On blood letters- Blood letters are an extreamly effective unit, as long as they are not left in the open. So deep strike is a huge problem for that. designe your detachments so that the blood letters are not going to be the most desirable units to shoot at. For example, if the blood letters deepstrike near or with the blood crushers, your oponent is going to have to descide whether to shoot at the hard hitting super resiliant crushers, or the scoring unit, either way they get assaulted by nasty creatures. I think that deamons can be one of the most difficult army's to play against, but that they require an extreame amount of stratigy and planing. Also deamons are not a forgiving army. So you will feel the consequinces of mistakes in , deployment, movment, ect. Make sure that every unit has a role, in your overall stratagy, there is no room for extra crap in a deamon list. every unit has to have a purpose, and they have to work towards that purpose 100% of the time. Good luck

Stelek wrote:

You can keep saying 'Demons are competitive, and look...they took the Vegas GT Best General award' and it'll still be .

People brought 4th edition lists, and got killed by a 4th edition list killer.

Note that people who brought anti-DS or 5th edition lists handed the demon armies their collective.

Please stop saying they are competitive, for goodness sake.



I'm thinking it's a little early to make that call. I know you've made your decision about daemon armies, and that's fine. Just because you've decided this army's fate doesn't mean the rest of us are done with it. I'm completely open to any contributions you're willing to make, but being melodramatic whenever constructive efforts are made doesn't get anyone anywhere. Let's look at it from a completely egocentric point of view. Does it not improve our hobby as a whole by holding reasonable discussion about all aspects of it, especially discounted armies? Wouldn't you like to see some killer daemon armies being played, that're worth playing against?


Speaking of which, I'm curious what these deadly 5th edition lists are, exactly. As for anti-DS, the only thing that comes to mind is inquisitors with mystics in their retinue. What am I missing?

oh, and Shep? "myself and other daemon believers..."? Way to make me sound like a satanist.

The Defenestrator wrote:oh, and Shep? "myself and other daemon believers..."? Way to make me sound like a satanist.

Well, you ARE playing the devil's own army.

I have heard that demon players actually sacrifice animals in an effort to make their army 'stronger'

And I heard that when a demon player's 'avatar' dies in a game of 40k, the demon player MUST kill himself.

I'll send you some literature. There is still hope for your soul.

Well yes, you do have a point there Shep.

I wanted the marine drop pod rules for the demons, not this "fun" random nonsense.

I also wanted BS4 on grinders, and S9 bolts of change.

You know, so demons could kill tanks at range.

"But they're a close combat army, and they have screamers for that."

Yes, that is the answer I got. The total break from reality answer I usually get from GW.

=======================

John ran a 5th edition list. That one was a light vehicle spam list. He played several demon armies and came off with wins against both.

Not sure about you, but watching the 'best general' suffer a loss makes me chuckle at the 'best general' concept.

Both demon armies that did well at the GT, had bloodcrushers in no small amount if I recall correctly.

The other armies? Didn't, and those 4 armies did poorly.

Can't I be illogical about an illogical fantasy army in a 40k world and keep saying the same things because perhaps they are true?

Demons are semi-competitive with crushers. They are not competitive without them.

Light mech, heavy mech, any imperial army with DH support (all whopping 32 points of it), blood angels dante/corbulo assault army, black templars, nid assault armies, lists that incorporate lots of meltaguns and flamers, new marines with ironclads (say goodnight, bloodcrushers)...

They can all beat the demons without much effort.

Did you see 3 LR in any army at Vegas? I looked and saw precious little LR and few mech armies (those few I saw weren't built well, either). I think the DW army had 2 LR? Froggage would know, he played it. That was about it though, and that guy was definitely not aggressive enough.

Just saying, there are several cardinal rules of 5th edition and players just didn't follow those rules in Vegas.

If demons do well in either Chicago (where attendance is apparently going to be very low) or Baltimore (new marines hurr)...I'll be both surprised and disappointed.

I've been trying to make daemons work for awhile and I have a huge collection of daemons to pull from.

That said, I've made a couple observations. First off they get a lot better as points go up as you can afford the good stuff and have a lot of bodies.

Couple thoughts:

I've had a tough time making greater deamons worth their while. If you go toughness 6 spam, it can qork at higher point levels, but I ultimately think the same amount of points in lesser daemons are more resilient with mass wounds and defiantly hit harder. I pretty much always ask the question what are great deamons actually doing that my troops can't.

Praveen and tank hunt are pretty much the only things that I've come up with, and for parveen I think their are better choices. For AV 14 tank hunting, a blood thirster is about as good as you get in the deamon list, plus you can T4 character hunt. (Always take the +1S upgrade).

Overall from an HQ perspective I prefer heralds, but I'm still working on best builds.

For Elites you really only have two choices:

Blood crushers, which are ridiculously awesome and are a pain in the ass for people to deal with. Hell if they weren;t 22 bucks a pop I'd consider running 24 of them.

Flamers are mint, and they are expensive (point wise). I often have a tough time fitting them in a list. I generally don;t have a tough time with clearing troops, in hth so I tend to go for more bodies.

I don't like fiends. I much more prefer khorne dogs and seekers. Both of which are good as they are resilient and fast. I tend to like dogs more because the move through cover surprises peopel and they are more consistant at popping tanks with AV 10 rear armor.

Troops:

You really just have plague bearers. Every list should start with two big chunks of plague bearers. Beacause of this I often run epidemius, even in a mixed list. Seems inefficient but you are usually up pretty far on the list extras by the end of the game and that when you are fighting for objectives.

horrors can be useful, although they tend to disappoint me. I actually think they are most useful at surprising someone by charging with them. They can charge 18" and then you can get a slower moving unit in to charge.

blood letters - I have a love hate relationship with these guys. Are they awesome. Yes... If they make it there. But usually they get the snot blown out of them. Some times they will single handedly winthe game for you.

I like the heavy choices. Pavane and the phlegm is a great combo, but you have to ask how often will you pull it off. I actually run the masque soemtimes just for the thre pravanes for my 3 soul grinders. Or if I'm running nurgle, my nurgle deamon princes and Ku'gath.

On the flip side if you are running a squad of horrors, you can hide the blue scribes int eh squad and basically do the same thing.

Anyway, are they competative. Sure they can be. A lot of builds destroy good armies, but you will have bad match ups. Also, at first galnce they look fast, bu tthey are the slowest list in the game in a lot of ways. You basiccally deploy to force hth and then spend the game grinding. Because of that you have to take tough and hard hitting units to even stand a chance.

Pete

First off, i have to admit, I'm not one of you Satan Worshipping Hippies. I am a Hunter of Daemons. I've faced quite a few variations of Daemons at the 1500 pt level, most often the all MC list.


And i can see why Stelek says they aren't tournament worthy. The problem is that in a tournament you have to play several games in succession, and win them all to win the tourney. I think on average Daemons do ok against most armies. But they do very poorly vs Daemonhunters, or anyone kitted out with inquisitor w/ mystics or sanctuary. Its not auto win, but it definitely hurts (ok, well sanctuary is auto daemons aren't going to win). They also tend to do very poorly against highly mechanized lists, especially the Daemon lists without flying and the daemon lists with flying are spending a lot of points to be able to fly. And this is just the times you don't roll poorly and get the wrong half of your army, or don't DS on top of another unit / off the board/ way out of position. In Tourneys, your list needs to consistently slaughter your opponent if you want to get 1st. Daemons need a lot of luck to do that.


I think the armor upgrade for DP is mandatory, or you'll get taken down by small arms fire that much easier without it, and psycannons love to see unarmored opponents.

A fun combo for DPs is slaanesh with pavane and breath of chaos.

I guess the thing that really gets me is the list is unreliable.

I don't know how it can be competitive AND unreliable.

Is unreliable a feature?

I don't like buying unreliable but maybe there's something fun about breaking down someone can tell me and I'll see the light.

wow thanks for the discussion i just play for fun but its all really insightful. Hope the OP got as much from it as me it dose take a lot of generalship to do it right. but if you can convince your opponent through positioning to shot at your T6 MC instead of your bloodletters you should win. It dose make it a lot harder when you come down at random, but what fun would it be if they started off in hth ?

I have been playing daemons since the release date. I don't care if Stelek says they are not competitive, but who cares. Its a game that some people enjoy playing more then winning. I am running a 1750 Point Tzeentch daemon list in a local torny cause i enjoy playing them.

The Defenestrator, my advice is play with them and build a list your comfortable with.

Okay, actually John got a draw vs. one daemon opponent and a win against me. I made the choice in army design to limit myself to 1/4 of the choices. I did that knowing that all mech would give me trouble, but it was a list concession I was willing to make.

That being said, even in the game with John which was a very unfavorable match up I had every opportunity to at least swing a draw, he just out played me. Against 90% of people out there playing that list I feel that I could have won. List design played a factor, but it was certainly the least factor in our game. The biggest factor was that John 1. knew his army better than I had (which, having played it for years, he should) and 2. that he just had his plan and stuck to it whereas I kind of freaked out and made some bonehead mistakes.

Not the daemons fault, but my own.

Stelek, I get the idea that you are like Shep. you don't like randomness. You can probably deal with it okay but you don't like it and you don't thrive on it. I, on the other hand, enjoy it. It is not better or worse, just a difference. Because of that difference I play daemons better than I do my Black Templars (which, as you mentioned above is a top tier army.)

Am I suddenly a different person when I play the "better" army? I don't think so. However the "worse army" lend itself more to my play style and I do better.

The idea of point and click lists seems to be one of the past. Generalship, despite what some people say (and please don't go off on this tangent, it is just my opinion), matters more with the more recent army books. There are more options and options require you to make choices. Choices are what will ultimately give you a win or a loss.

So yeah, Stelek, we know you don't like daemons. Please shut up about it now. I don't think that you can (or have) said anything different for the last few months. Those of us winning with daemons must be fortunate to be playing idiots or people stuck in the past. Fine I will accept a lesser class of opponent. You are absolutely right, it is non competitive, just for fun list. None of us will ever win more than 50% of the games we play.

Fine, accept that we accept that and want to keep talking about it anyway and coming up with ways to make our list fun to play and to give us options and a chance.

Whew. Sorry for the longwinded rant.

Back on topic, yeah, screamers break my heart every time I use them...

about unreliability. It's a funny thing and I find, for the most part, I do just fine both in spite of, and due to, said unreliability. I'll try to put it into context with a game I played this weekend.

In a 2000 point match, I lost both Soul Grinders to deep strike mishaps before they ever got to taste juicy power armor (sort of my fault, I went too aggressive with the second one by going beyond my icon, and suffered for it, not really the point). However, I landed a rather clutch deep strike with my Keeper of Secrets and my flamers, who between the two of them demolished 2 devastator squads and a 5-man tac squad on turn 1 flamers/turn 2 assault. (future reference: 4+ invulnerable save>a half-dozen lascannons). The way I look at it, for every unit horribly mangled by mishaps, I usually get some depressingly slow khorne or nurgle units into CC second turn, so the whole thing pans out ok in the end. You just need to take a longer view of the army than most.

And whoever said any part of this game reliable, really. I've seen too many botched handfuls of 2+ saves to ever make that statement with any confidence.

Oh, and Somnicide, I take offense at that "50% wins" comment I'm sitting at least in the 60-70% wins range at my FLGS and local tourneys, though I admit I'm not keeping track.