Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With the new Space Marine codex essentially out, I am suddenly stuck with a dilema. Whereas before I left my Sgt Marines with just a bolter since they were attached to little 6 man heavy squads, I now need 10 marines to even take that plasma cannon, and since I can split off 5 marines to go whack things, the points for a power fist or power weapon seem a little better spent.

The question though is WHICH is the better use of points? Is Str8 I1 worth 25 points? Or is Str4 sufficient with the extra attack by way of pistol?

Really I am kind of stumped. I don't want to end up with 4 sgts for two squads if I can avoid it.
List wise, I have a pile of shooty termies and 10 assault marines, with a lightning claw chappy and termi librarian for back up, and was just using the marines as a heavy weapon platform. Now with 5th and the new codex, I am probably going to be rewriting the list completely.

So what do you think? To fist or not to fist?

FIST!

I think your first instinct is best: leave the Sergeant with a Bolter and get on with shooting things.

half fists other half range weapons

Fists are ALWAYS a threat to just about anything. Bolters... well... not so much. I am never let down by them, other than when used on my templars... god bless em' with his oh so powerful one attack! LOL.

Power Fists aren't a threat to whatever can kill them first. If you're going to run Combat Squads, then you're essentially making them vulnerable to any enemy that can muster 5+ attacks in close combat. Tactical squads work best at 1"-12" where Power Fists are useless.

If you're going to use Power Fists in 5th edition, you should put them in dedicated assault squads that either have the armour (Terminators) or the mass of bodies (Assault Squads) to survive until they can actually be used.

See, that is what I don't know about. I figure running around 5 men with say a flamer and a power weapon or a fist seems like a good plan, sort of as a support unit for assault marines, dreads, termies, or whatever silly unit I toss in there. Alternately they can be speedbumps for the shootier squads.
The "4 men before the fist" issue is a big one I think though. On the other hand, while a power weapon would get to swing at the same time as the other 4 guys, it can't threaten MCs or vehicles as well (though krak comes standard, no?).
All in all though, 10 plinking bolters at a tank while the lascannon does its job isn't exciting, so I intend to use that combat squad business in missions without KP at least.

Killing 5 SM's these days in CC is not a done deal in any way shape or form... The fist will KILL characters all day. Nobs laugh at everything not a fist/or Lightening Claw. Fist's can destroy vehicles... 25pts for something with that sort of utility... seems pretty spiffy to me.

To put it another way, I have been in plenty of situations where I had wished I had a fist... I have been in Zero situations where I wished I had something else other than a fist. (Templars aside... swinging once with a fist is just silly-sad)

I do agree that in many situations, the fist is not gonna help.

My .02

As a non-marine player, I LOVE to see marine squads that are fist-free. Nothing in a marine list scares me in close combat like a fist.

If you don't have a fist, every walker and monstrous creature is going to waltz through your tactical squads and laugh, laugh, laugh the whole time.

As well they should if you're a weak enough player to let them assault you.

Basically a fist is combat insurance against combat units. Few units in the game can waltz through 10 marines with a fist.
plus, 25 pts is a small price to pay for insurance for a 200+ pt squad.
It is well worth it considering extra attacks give you very little against most oponents.

I thought we were talking about Power Fists in combat squads...

while firsts are worse and can actually be killed in combat squads...the utility they offer is still 2nd to none...Its amazing that the fist can go up 10 points and lose 1 attack and STILL be preferred by most players...kinda makes you think back to the old days of 3rd when you could assault out of rhinos and punch a character with 4 power fist attacks and realize how lucky marine opponents are now lol.

The thing about combat squads is that you don't always combat squad.

Saying you should 'never' have a fist, because you are 'always' going to combat squad is pretty wrong.

40% of the vegas GT games were kill points. Almost half of the games at the tourney where your marine units will be 10 strong with ample ablative wounds for power fisting.

And if you think you aren't going to get charged by an assault army with a 'mid-range specialist' army like marines, then you are delusional.

This question, however is too vague. Without the context of a list. It is impossible to say. Both set ups could be equally valid. Do you have 6 ironclads? I don't think a fist would be necessary. Are you running 10 man drop pod squads? Absolutely take the fist.

If you look at the Mathhammer, the choice isn't as clearcut as it used to be. Previously the Fist was the hands down choice, since it was 15 points, and was totally superior in every respect.

I guess it's clear how great they used to be, when you think that they've been upcosted 10 points, lost an attack, and are still probably the better choice most of the time.

As has been said, the list as a whole determines the value of a Fist, or maybe a Power Weapon, or of skipping both.

The fact is, a Fist can do things that nothing else can. They make Carnifexes think twice. They threaten any vehicle in the game. They make it unwise to bring many ICs near.

Power Weapons have certainly gotten more viable, but I think the impact of a Fist is much more expansive. If you're going to spend the points, spend them on the Fist. Otherwise just avoid combat, and give up the squads that can't.

I would go with the fist, because, I love power fists. Now, I know that they no longer have 9 wounds, but I still like to have that option in my squads. Just avoid things with high numbers of attacks and power weapons...like banshees. That being said, you don't always have to combat squad with the 10 marines. I like that kind of versatility.

Special CC weapons are going to depend a lot on the type of squad in question. If its a tactical squad carrying a heavy weapon that you plan to combat squad, then a special CC weapon is kinda silly. If its a tactical squad that you plan to use for short-range firefights then a fist is probably a decent investment.

Honestly using fists as insurance against most MCs is not always worth the points. My Avatar will probably still assault a tactical squad irrelevant of fists. A CC fex is probably tooled out enough not to care most of the time either. Even against dreads I have had a Space Wolf squad swinging several powerfists in a turn and failing to do much with them.

My list will probably have 6-10 terminators, a 10 man assault squad with fist, a hellfire dread and DCCW/AssCan dread, then... stuff. Probably 2 ten man tac squads, one with plasmagun/plasmacannon, one with lascannon and someting else. Maybe some scouts, and some manner of HQ depending on where things go that ways. Really it is pretty much up in the air now till I get the new codex and get to build some fun stuff. I am fairly certain though that it will be a more assaulty type army, at least a close combat one, so combat squads outside of KP missions is likely.

Been running combat squads with my blood angels since that recent update came out with a fair amount of success. Would usually have the half with the heavy of course hang in the back; and the other half with a powerfist and special weapon if points allow. The PF squad would advance to threaten MC's, vehicles if get close, or just stomp other infantry. If facing a horde army that will be assaulting more than me, they help form a wall (however long they last granted) for the heavy weapons.