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Title says it all! Haven't seen much discussion on DE units, tactics, builds, etc, so I figured I'd raise the topic.

For example, it sounds like the portal list has gone away for the most part. Less LOS blocking terrain makes it to risky, I assume, although knowing (for the most part) who gets first turn should help.

Most people looking at mostly melee lists? Shooty? Hybrid? The new vehicles rules seem to make raiders a little tougher, but overall they're still pretty fragile. Mobility is increasingly important in 5th ed, but grabbing more raiders means more kill points, too, and DE warriors (and wyches, in wych lists) are pretty fragile.

With the new blast rules, and increased number of hordes (orks), are people considering using shredders?

With the increase in cover (and, again, numbers) haemonculi with destructors seem tempting, but they rack up kill points pretty quickly. Plus, with strength 4, they still aren't great at killing hordes (for the cost), and other DE weapons are effective against things like marines.

I think ravagers with all disintegrators have received a boost, overall, with the new rules.

People thinking more about using Reaver squads now? +3 save on turbo boost and jetbike move after shooting give them a boost, and with the (apparent) increase in armor being used, 3 bikes with 2 blasters may be a decent option.

Looking at some of Stelek's extreme Ork lists, I wonder if DE could outshoot a shooty ork list? Out-assault an assaulty ork list? Regular boyz are so cheap and tough that they are still difficult for most DE units to take down.

It seems most armies are gravitating less towards several, cheap units to fewer, tougher, more role-specific lists. I'm wondering if more lists may start including lords with incubi retinues, as they're fairly killy and tough, especially compared to everything else DE has.

Any potential enemy list matchups you think DE will really struggle with?

And how about scourges, with...well, nevermind them...

Tons more possibilities and questions, so I'll leave it at that. Throw out your thoughts and impressions.

So far the only serious advantage gained by DE in the new edition is the 1 better cover save for your Dark Lance squads and the fact that TONS more people are taking Land Raider Crusaders, at least at my FLGS they are. Oh, and more survivable skimmer crashes.

This comes at the cost of terrain to protect your skimmers, consolidation into assaults being impossible, our very average leadership being modified by combat losses and our skimmers being penetrated 50% of the time even when we turbo boost.

Wonderful changes all around for DE.

Sorry I didn't actually add much in the way of constructive comments about list building. Every time I try to think about it I have visions of slowly shoving every last spiky DE model I own up the collective rectum of Games "Let's give vanilla marines a new codex and models every other year" Workshop.

6 units of DE warrior 2 blasters and 2 splinter cannons
2 dracons loaded out
3 units of wyches for counter assault 2blasters
3X3 man bike squads with 2 blasters
3X7 man unit of scourges with 3 D-lances (blasphemy I know) but they give you mobility to run away if threatend by assault.

Park everything in cover keep your warriors mobile for torrents of fire and to claim objectives. 24 blasters and 6 lances. This is of course anti Land Raider but also give you lots of anti infantry also. Use the Dracons and Wyches for counter and screen everything with warriors for 4+ saves everywere.

I've been playing DE for the last couple of years. In 5th so far I've had mixed results against Orks (running a primarily 5th ed list: couple foot squads, couple raider squads, couple wyche squads, ravager, talos).

I think that DE assault can't really tackle the big ork hordes: I charged 16 wyches and 8 warriors, Dracon, and Haemonculus, into a unit of 30 boyz, and only killed 3 to my 7 losses. Could have been bad dice, but the S3 against the t4 is tough.

The mobility is nice, but as mentioned, Raiders are still fragile, especially considering they have to move slow to fire that one Dark Lance, which puts them at risk of being assaulted after they've dropped their cargo.

Ravagers are good. Wyches are still durable, but the 'counter assault' across the board makes them tough to use against larger squads.
Agonizers everywhere continue to be necessary.

I'm using more Shredders, as the blast and S6 is good against hordes (if short ranged). I leave the DL shots to the Raiders and the Warrior squads to target tanks.

Small units of Warriors aren't good enough to hold objectives, unfortunately...

6 units of DE warrior 2 blasters and 2 splinter cannons
2 dracons loaded out
3 units of wyches for counter assault 2blasters
3X3 man bike squads with 2 blasters
3X7 man unit of scourges with 3 D-lances (blasphemy I know) but they give you mobility to run away if threatend by assault.

Looks pretty scary, as its fully footslogging (bar the Scourges).
The Scourges should be deployed normally, no deep striking.

Lemartes wrote:6 units of DE warrior 2 blasters and 2 splinter cannons
2 dracons loaded out
3 units of wyches for counter assault 2blasters
3X3 man bike squads with 2 blasters
3X7 man unit of scourges with 3 D-lances (blasphemy I know) but they give you mobility to run away if threatend by assault.

Park everything in cover keep your warriors mobile for torrents of fire and to claim objectives. 24 blasters and 6 lances. This is of course anti Land Raider but also give you lots of anti infantry also. Use the Dracons and Wyches for counter and screen everything with warriors for 4+ saves everywere.

My only question re: a list like this is whether it has a high enough volume of fire to deal with hordes and MEQ. Splinter Rifles don't hurt much in general, and all the blasters, while good anti-armor, only have one (short-ranged) shot each.

I played a 1750 game against Orks last night, granted with 2 foot warrior, 2 Raider Warrior, 3 wyche in Raider, 2 Ravagers, Talos, Archon, and got pretty much tabled by turn 4 or 5. Not to mention it was a KP game, and I had tons of KP to give away. I threw 14 Wyches against @20 orc boyz and bounced off, causing minimal damage, then getting wiped out in the return.

I'm not sold on Wyches on counterassault in 5e due to: random drug ability, S3 (usually), T3, small numbers, enemy countercharge.

I'm going to re-tweak my list, and try to go foot heavy, but I still don't see where the volume of fire will come from.

I still say the 1st turn 24" threat radius of a Reaver Archon is amazing

Disintegrators just got more interesting. 3 auto-hitting plasma cannons per Ravager per turn? I like.

Though I know using the mass quantities of disintegrators provided by massed ranks of raiders gives your opponent way too many kill points, it seems that having close to 20 plasma cannon shots every turn would be able to kill just about anything, with the possible exception of mechanized guard, and ork hordes

Shrike78 wrote:Though I know using the mass quantities of disintegrators provided by massed ranks of raiders gives your opponent way too many kill points, it seems that having close to 20 plasma cannon shots every turn would be able to kill just about anything, with the possible exception of mechanized guard, and ork hordes

I think you've summed up the problem...there's going to be a lot of armor and hordes in the near future. Actually, that many disintegrators should do some decent damage to ork mobs, but hurting armor is going to be an issue.

Ive been doing very good with my all mounted DE so far, havent lost a game yet. Granted ive only played about 10 and havent faced some super broken lists yet but I think I could do it. With Countercharge you have to use your wyches wisely, back them up. Dont EXPECT them to be flawless. Once you get a green tide mob out of fearless you are good to go if you pack Terrorfex/horrorfex combos. Ravager with 3 dissies for horde and tons of lances/blasters for mech. KPs will still be a problem but Night shields help a bit.

Ive been using Jetbikes lately again and I really like them. Im dropping my skyboard Hamonculi for more and another warrior squad. I loved my Hamonculi but they are just to risky for KP's.

Laosiamus wrote:Ive been doing very good with my all mounted DE so far, havent lost a game yet. Granted ive only played about 10 and havent faced some super broken lists yet but I think I could do it. With Countercharge you have to use your wyches wisely, back them up. Dont EXPECT them to be flawless. Once you get a green tide mob out of fearless you are good to go if you pack Terrorfex/horrorfex combos. Ravager with 3 dissies for horde and tons of lances/blasters for mech. KPs will still be a problem but Night shields help a bit.

Let's get some details. What's your list look like, what's working well and what isn't? What kind of lists have you fought against?

My only question re: a list like this is whether it has a high enough volume of fire to deal with hordes and MEQ. Splinter Rifles don't hurt much in general, and all the blasters, while good anti-armor, only have one (short-ranged) shot each.

Don't forget the Splinter cannons give you 48 S4 Assault 4 AP shots to help thin out Hordes of orks. Then when they get close enough counter assault with Wyches and Dracons. Splinter rifles are only S3 but thier also AP5 which isn't half bad against Ork boyz.

Grimaldi wrote:

Laosiamus wrote:Ive been doing very good with my all mounted DE so far, havent lost a game yet. Granted ive only played about 10 and havent faced some super broken lists yet but I think I could do it. With Countercharge you have to use your wyches wisely, back them up. Dont EXPECT them to be flawless. Once you get a green tide mob out of fearless you are good to go if you pack Terrorfex/horrorfex combos. Ravager with 3 dissies for horde and tons of lances/blasters for mech. KPs will still be a problem but Night shields help a bit.

Let's get some details. What's your list look like, what's working well and what isn't? What kind of lists have you fought against?

I'd also be interested in some list discussion. I have been running my Ravagers with 1 DL and 2 Dissies. Problem is that you have to move very slowly to get to fire them all as plasma cannon shots.

Here is the list I ran:
Archon, Field, Drugs, Punisher, Helm, Trophy Rack
9 Wyches in Raider, Succubus, Agonizer
9 Wyches in Raider, Succubus, Agonizer
9 Wyches in Raider, Succubus, Agonizer
10 Warriors in Raider, SC, Shredder, Agonizer, Raider w DL, Horrorfex
10 Warriors in Raider, SC, Shredder, Agonizer, Raider w DL, Horrorfex
10 Warriors on foot, Agonizer, 2 DLs
10 Warriors on foot Agoniser, 2 DLs
Talos
2 Ravagers, each w DL and 2 Disintegrators

That's mine from memory. Pretty much a 4th edition list. I don't have any trouble against Marines in 5th. And I didn't have trouble against Nids either (in 4th).
The issue nowadays is the cover saves that everyone and their grandma get. I fired 4 Disintegrators into first a squad of boys, then into a unit of Stormboyz, and didn't do much between the cover saves and even with being only a little spread out, I was only getting 2 or 3 under a template.

So is the answer to load up on splinter cannon and disintegrators? Are Night Shields worth the big price? I've used Horrorfex in the past effectively, and they're cheap just to add on.

I've also been toying with Incubi and a couple meatshield warriors as a retinue. With the retinue rules, the Archon would be protected pretty well, and that unit could open up a world of hurt.

As a side question, what is the deal with models like Drazhar? Do they still need permission?

Grimaldi wrote: For example, it sounds like the portal list has gone away for the most part. Less LOS blocking terrain makes it to risky, I assume, although knowing (for the most part) who gets first turn should help.

I was big on portals in 4th ed and now LOS does play a huge risk if you are using the portal in trying to get into close combat. I think its better to use the portal to hide your troop choices and to delay when they come out for a last turn grab on objectives. I think portal positioning is less critical now as most armies can reach the 24” middle board practically on the first turn. So I think in pitched battle and Dawn of War a portal is less needed and I use it more for playing the mission versus trying to get into combat.

At the LVGT I was constantly struggling to get my portals good locations and in one game I lost both portal carriers by the 2nd turn. In another game I decided to not use it at all and used reserves instead – I still lost but the portal would not have made a difference.

Currently, I am trying a non-portal list and will try putting all my units on the board if I win first turn and try for “wipe out”. If I lose first turn then I will probably put units into reserve and play “last turn grab” (which seems a viable tactic being mechanized and getting to move 2nd). At the LVGT my main tactic was “last turn grab” and it won me 2 games (I went 2-2-1).

As for the new setup rules I think going 2nd is in some cases better than going 1st. Knowing where your enemy is when you deploy totally helps us and its less risky now. At the LVGT I choose to go 2nd many times and I think when you know how much time is left in a game you have an advantage in going 2nd. So either way is fine with me, I can adapt to either going first or second very confidently.

Most people looking at mostly melee lists? Shooty? Hybrid? The new vehicles rules seem to make raiders a little tougher, but overall they're still pretty fragile. Mobility is increasingly important in 5th ed, but grabbing more raiders means more kill points, too, and DE warriors (and wyches, in wych lists) are pretty fragile.

For my style of play I have found 1 wych squad more than enough coupled with an Archon to make an effective hammer unit – it doesn’t over kill. Taking raider squads are crucial to play “last turn grab” and make a decent fire base and combat support unit. Kill points penalize us as we are a mechanized army – I say embrace the mobility and forget about your kill points. Its not impossible to win and at the LVGT I tied one game only because my Haemy overdosed on the last turn otherwise I would have won that game against Eldrad. You just have to play like a coward…er. Marine player and play conservatively.

With the new blast rules, and increased number of hordes (orks), are people considering using shredders?

I have put shredders into most of my foot slogging warrior squads but 5th edition makes it open season on troop choices and they rarely get close enough to use them. I still put them in the lists but I haven’t got to use them yet (in which case I am losing in 20 points that never get realized and taking 2 blasters is half the price!).

With the increase in cover (and, again, numbers) haemonculi with destructors seem tempting, but they rack up kill points pretty quickly. Plus, with strength 4, they still aren't great at killing hordes (for the cost), and other DE weapons are effective against things like marines.

Forget about kill points and put one haemy in each raider squad to make them more shooty. I played 2 of them at the LVGT and both had combat drugs just to make them more survivable – the only real highlight was a haemy who put 4 wounds on Sammael (thanks to drugs) and Sammy failed his armor saves and died. Other than that the destructor had one good game in flaming large squads of lessor daemons. No real difference from 4th is noticed.

I think ravagers with all disintegrators have received a boost, overall, with the new rules.

I do think blast templates did get slightly better for the ravagers and I would say at least one 3 dissy ravager will usually make my lists (as I never really used them before). I still like 3 lance ravagers better as I can usually find a tank, MC or super HQ to put 3 lances on. 3 lance ravagers are usually my MVP’s.

People thinking more about using Reaver squads now? +3 save on turbo boost and jetbike move after shooting give them a boost, and with the (apparent) increase in armor being used, 3 bikes with 2 blasters may be a decent option.

I see a lot of lists with reavers in and also including a lord on a bike but to me bikes haven’t really changed much in field performance and I still think a lord on foot is faster. The only change I see that makes a small bike squad worth it is it being a great “distraction” unit in a Raider Rush style list. Just turbo them forward and use them as a fire magnet with a 3+ cover save – other than that I personally feel they haven’t gotten that much better, they still are very fragile due to being a small unit in nature and are terribly hard to conceal.

Looking at some of Stelek's extreme Ork lists, I wonder if DE could outshoot a shooty ork list? Out-assault an assaulty ork list? Regular boyz are so cheap and tough that they are still difficult for most DE units to take down.

Haven’t played orks much but if had seen the overall winner at the LVGT and how many Orks he had on the board for 1750 you would just say forget about it (no vehicles, nothing but bodies). The one thing in 5th edition that really took the wind out of my sails is that when you charge a 20 boy ork mob they get to counter charge and you might kill a few but the return attacks (that we never had to worry about in 4th ed.) is devastating. I think if I could tailor a list to deal with orks it might come close but I do not play that way and I still think the orks would still win.

It seems most armies are gravitating less towards several, cheap units to fewer, tougher, more role-specific lists. I'm wondering if more lists may start including lords with incubi retinues, as they're fairly killy and tough, especially compared to everything else DE has.

I have seen quite a few lists with Incubi and it usually ends up the same way, they kill what they charged but then get rapid-fired and die. For me, the only retinue I condone is Leliths and Urien’s – other than that I do not think a retinue is a good choice, the points would be better spent on troops.

So my play style has changed:

WWP’s are not necessary, I am trying raider rush now and using reserves.
Max out troop choices especially with raider squads and play “last turn grab”.
Less close combat squads and more shooting emphasis (less wyches, more ravagers)
Playing Kabal 90% of the time instead of Wych Cult

I ain’t saying that’s for everyone, its just for my play style. I am going to play test with a Coven Rush list using 3 talos and see if that has changed at all in 5th.

Kwi wrote:

I have put shredders into most of my foot slogging warrior squads but 5th edition makes it open season on troop choices and they rarely get close enough to use them. I still put them in the lists but I haven’t got to use them yet (in which case I am losing in 20 points that never get realized and taking 2 blasters is half the price!).

That's the real problem, I think...expense and use. Certainly footslogging units will see limited use for them. Mobile units may have opportunities to use them more, but to get the most use of of them, you need a really large mass of bodies to hit, and if you're that close to an enemy unit that large, you're probably dead next turn regardless. They seem like something tempting to consider, but I'm not seeing them work.

Kwi wrote:
Forget about kill points and put one haemy in each raider squad to make them more shooty. I played 2 of them at the LVGT and both had combat drugs just to make them more survivable – the only real highlight was a haemy who put 4 wounds on Sammael (thanks to drugs) and Sammy failed his armor saves and died. Other than that the destructor had one good game in flaming large squads of lessor daemons. No real difference from 4th is noticed.

Lol...I don't think you're final assessment of use matches up with the expense! 2 guys with destructor, scissorhand and drugs come in at 140 points. Aside from a freak bit of luck (killing Sammael), you got 1 good flame in? As much as I want some template attacks in the list, I don't think that's a cost effective way to do it.

Kwi wrote:
I do think blast templates did get slightly better for the ravagers and I would say at least one 3 dissy ravager will usually make my lists (as I never really used them before). I still like 3 lance ravagers better as I can usually find a tank, MC or super HQ to put 3 lances on. 3 lance ravagers are usually my MVP’s.

With so many hordes, deepstriking demons/terminators, lots of chaos and marine armies (especially with the new codex coming out), I think disintegrators are going to be very important in DE lists. My only concern is the increase in armor in some lists...dark lances are so fragile, it's best to have lots scattered throughout. I'm think ravagers with 1 DL and 2 dis may be best...still enough template goodness to really hurt large groups of troops and deepstrikers, and a backup DL in case there's a critical need to shoot at some armor.

Kwi wrote:
I have seen quite a few lists with Incubi and it usually ends up the same way, they kill what they charged but then get rapid-fired and die. For me, the only retinue I condone is Leliths and Urien’s – other than that I do not think a retinue is a good choice, the points would be better spent on troops.

The problem I see is that troops don't really kill much. Depending on setup, they may threat armor or whittle away at enemy units, but they aren't really good at killing large numbers of enemy infantry. This is problematic, because you need lots of troops selections to capture objectives, but you're so fragile, if you don't kill lots f enemies quickly, they'll tear you apart with fire. Melee combat seems pretty brutal in this new ruleset, so Incubi can take advantage of that are easily dispatch many enemy unit types. With 2/3 of the missions purely objective based, it's virtually irrelevant if they get killed afterwards, or even if what they destroyed cost more points than they did...all that matters is they took out an tactically vital target, and they can do that to just about anything.

Kwi wrote:
WWP’s are not necessary, I am trying raider rush now and using reserves.
Max out troop choices especially with raider squads and play “last turn grab”.
Less close combat squads and more shooting emphasis (less wyches, more ravagers)
Playing Kabal 90% of the time instead of Wych Cult

I think I agree with all of these points. I'm still leaning towards my raider squads being small (5-6 warriors each), but I'm taking all 6 slots. I've got something close to what I think will be a final list here on a battle report I wrote up. I'm thinking DE operate almost like Tau, hanging back, using angles and range to shoot the enemy apart, but with the added flexibility of a couple melee units to strike trouble spots. I think I'll alter the above list to have splinter cannons in all the troops squads (giving the list 10...not bad for shooting up orks/nids/guard), and possibly put 1 DL on each ravager. Should make it a little more able to deal with whatever threats appear at the time.

On the contrary, I think WWP are more necessary, now that you have less cover. Yes, if you get to go first, it makes sense to deploy everything and charge straight in, but if you are going second, you can hide your army in the WWPs and keep them safe for the first round of shooting. If you can't hide two guys which are carrying WWPs, then yes, you will have trouble.

Drop the WWPs first chance you get, and then you have the option of when and where to apply your reserves - which will not be shot before they have a chance to attack.

Thanks for the comments on weapon choices, by the way. Useful.

I am running 3 Disintegrators on the ravagers, and using them on minimal power - just to kill troops. DLs in footslogger units are for the armor, though I am having trouble with Armor.

I think my other problem with WWPs is that there are many more armies now that I want to stay away from. Knowing who will go first and who will go second, and having the option to hold everything off the board, makes a mechanized, non-WWP list very appealing in my opinion.

I'm surprised you're using the disintegrators on low power so much...what are you fighting mostly? I figure most of the time with the blast I'll get at least 2 targets, and maybe more, so it's statistically better with the higher power and longer range. Is it because you're forced to move a lot?