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I came up with the concerns with the 'extended' disembarkation that is obviously possible given the RAW. It's the reason I subscribed to this forum, just so I could get some positive feed back on the issue. So the issue, as everyone has come to find out, is as MagikalMemories stated, in a previous post (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/214403.page):

MagickalMemories wrote:Let's add another ruffle.

If I'm wrong, PLEASE point out page numbers (whether or not you quote text), because we couldn't find it.

Squad of SM's moves 6" and all manage to be within 2" of an access point.
SM's embark into Rhino.
Rhino takes off & moves 12".
Your SM's have just moved nearly 20" in that movement phase. Add a road and they can go another 6".
Make it an Ork mob in a Trukk painted red and you can add another inch.


Eric



I can't imagine this was 'intended' cause it means transports moving along roads are the fastest means of getting into the fray, short of deep striking and the like. As a DE player, I can pretty well manipulate the rules to do the same if I moved a raider 18". This however isn't the point. The point is 'embarking/disembarking' is broken concerning this issue. The only 'fix' I can think of is that the rules need to be clarified to either: 1. Denote that, "Vehicles that moved another 6" via a road are moving 'Flat Out'". 2. Or to simply just say, " disembarking is not possible if any transport moved more than 12"."

I wasn't even aware of troops being able to move, embark and then have the vehicle move. So I guess we're stuck with this until GW puts together a FAQ.

RAW, Its allowed.

i dont see anything wrong with this. its legal by RAW and the benifit of moving an extra 6" on roads and then being able to disembark and shoot/assault is limited by the fact that roads dont always go where you want them to. i cant remember the last time roads played a significat part in a game.

On the "Making the Change" article on the www.games-workshop.com website for orks the guy specifically points out that a trukk mob has a possible 27" assault range! 27"!! You cannot embark/disembark on the same turn but if you started on the trukk it could move 13"+2"disembark+1-6"waaagh!+6" assault range=27"

Rymafyr wrote:

I wasn't even aware of troops being able to move, embark and then have the vehicle move. So I guess we're stuck with this until GW puts together a FAQ.

Not only is this allowed, it's been this way since third edition. Not an oversight, but working as intended.

I really don't see anything wrong with transports on roads being the fastest way of getting models around the battlefield.... And your thing with the Dark Eldar specifically, their whole schtick is their piratical nature, being lightly armored but highly mobile.

Rymafyr wrote:The point is 'embarking/disembarking' is broken concerning this issue. ...<snip>

I wasn't even aware of troops being able to move, embark and then have the vehicle move. So I guess we're stuck with this until GW puts together a FAQ.

If Magikal Memories's example is broken, then it's been broken since 3rd edition at least. In 4th edition (it's prohibited now) I routinely moved eldar units to within 2" of the hatch of a grav tank, embarked them, and moved the vehicle a further 36" with star engines in the same turn. It's not an error; it's a tactic.

I think we're "stuck" with it because it's the rule that GW intended.

As I have yet to play on a board with a road since the introduction of the "road in 40K = faster" concept, i don't think it's going to be a huge issue.

The move-embark-move is long established; nothing all that wrong with it, either. At least it's now reduced to a 12" restriction, whereas before you could load your Orks and Eldar up after a 6" move and go screaming across the board full-tilt.

Not being aware of a troop unit moving, embarking then having the vehicle move, isn't a biggie IMO. This would be unneccessary in deployment having no benefit for distance and not something that would happen that often during the game anyway. I was just stating a fact.

The "extended disembarking" is the thing troubling me, unless it is intended in that way. Especially, since in previous editions, a transport has only been allowed to disembark troops after a 12" move. Given the loose manner in which the process (speaking only of the disembarkation of troops from transports) has been written, it makes me suspect failure on the part of GW missing something important. If not, that's more than cool. It's their game let 'em do whatever they want with it. I've got plenty of armies to take advantage of it.

Why did it raise concern for me? Why wouldn't it? Anytime there's a pretty major change in the previous rules one tends to look at the new rules with a bit of caution. "OMG! they're actually going to let me do that?!?" So I sought out a place where I could find some decent feedback.

And yeah, we are stuck with whatever is broken with the rules till GW makes an FAQ, if anything is broken. We won't know til then of course.

I don't see what you consider broken.....

Yeah, I don't see this as broken either.

It's a little strange that models can embark on a non-skimmer and move 18" (provided the vehicle is on a road) while a skimmer can only move 12" on the troops disembark, but I certainly wouldn't put it into the 'broken' category.

More of just an oddity.

It has been reduced in effectiveness in 5th ed somewhat by not allowing models to embark or disembark if a vehicle has moved (or is going to move) flat out this turn.

Rymafyr wrote:
The "extended disembarking" is the thing troubling me, unless it is intended in that way.

It is intended that way.

Moz wrote:It has been reduced in effectiveness in 5th ed somewhat by not allowing models to embark or disembark if a vehicle has moved (or is going to move) flat out this turn.

And where do you get this information? My reading of the Vehicle movement section with passengers had no mention of this.

Moz wrote:It has been reduced in effectiveness in 5th ed somewhat by not allowing models to embark or disembark if a vehicle has moved (or is going to move) flat out this turn.

Yeah, I saw that and completely agree with it to be honest. So at least for Fast Skimmers, I'd personally have to argue that it can move 18" and disembark troops anytime and that their 'flat out' move is greater than 18" up to 24". I personally hate making this kind of conjecture and would rather have a more clear and consise wording about it personally. How do I come by that logically? Let's build the argument.

1. A fast vehicle that moves flat-out moves more than 12" up to 18".
2. A fast Vehicle, on a Road, can move flat out up to 24".
3. However, the fast vehicle moving on the road, will be moving at Cruising Speed from more than 6" to 18" given the way the rules are currently written. The reason according to RAW that Road movement is faster, is given on pg. 57; "Moving a maximum of 12" may seem relatively slow for a vehicle, but it represents a cross-country speed rather than travelling on a road". The reason Skimmers are not included in the 'Road' movement is because they already have that capability.
4. Since skimmers are not hampered in any fashion by 'cross-country' movement, a skimmer is always moving at combat speed from 1" to 6", and cruising speed is always from greater than 6" to 18".

Thus a skimmer can disembark troops at 18". This would also mean Fast vehicles moving on a road 18" can still fire a weapon and defensive weapons, and so would a skimmer moving 18".

Rymafyr wrote:
4. Since skimmers are not hampered in any fashion by 'cross-country' movement, a skimmer is always moving at combat speed from 1" to 6", and cruising speed is always from greater than 6" to 18".

Thus a skimmer can disembark troops at 18". This would also mean Fast vehicles moving on a road 18" can still fire a weapon and defensive weapons, and so would a skimmer moving 18".

Your point #4 does not logically stand up. Fast skimmers are clearly moving 'flat-out' when moving from 12"-24" by the printed rules and models cannot disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat-out.

yakface wrote:Your point #4 does not logically stand up. Fast skimmers are clearly moving 'flat-out' when moving from 12"-24" by the printed rules and models cannot disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat-out.

As I mentioned, it is conjecture, but what pg tells that flat-out movement is from 12" to 24"?

Rymafyr wrote:

yakface wrote:Your point #4 does not logically stand up. Fast skimmers are clearly moving 'flat-out' when moving from 12"-24" by the printed rules and models cannot disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat-out.

As I mentioned, it is conjecture, but what pg tells that flat-out movement is from 12" to 24"?

P.70, right column, Fast Vehichles -> Moving Fast Vehicles: "A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than 12" and up to 18"."

P.71, left column, Skimmers -> Moving Skimmers: "A skimmer that is also fast and is moving flat out can move up to 24"."

Kinda hard to miss.

kadun wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:

yakface wrote:Your point #4 does not logically stand up. Fast skimmers are clearly moving 'flat-out' when moving from 12"-24" by the printed rules and models cannot disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat-out.

As I mentioned, it is conjecture, but what pg tells that flat-out movement is from 12" to 24"?

P.70, right column, Fast Vehichles -> Moving Fast Vehicles: "A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than 12" and up to 18"."

P.71, left column, Skimmers -> Moving Skimmers: "A skimmer that is also fast and is moving flat out can move up to 24"."

Kinda hard to miss.

The reference on p 70 is solely talking about 'fast' vehicles at that point (because skimmers haven't been addressed at that point). While the reference for skimmers on 71 are only saying move up to 24"? Moving up from where? There is as much conjecture in saying a fast skimmer, moving from >12" to 24", is moving flat-out, than it is for me to make my statement above. I can at least cite some precedence given the examples I noted with the new RAW.

This is why I started the post to begin with. It's also why I think this part of the 'disembarking' rules are seriously under clarified (for those who don't like the term broken). So a fast moving, land based vehicle is supposed to be easier to disembark from just because it's on a road while a fast skimmer can't move the same distance and disembark?

The simplest solution to fix this is one I stated at the beginning of the post; if you move the extra 6" along a road, the vehicle should be considered as having moved flat-out. Or the alternative, say specifically that fast skimmers are moving flat out from >12" to 24". Sadly, the RAW do neither. At least in 4th ed they clarified vehicles moving along roads could not disembark, fire, tank shock or even use smoke if they wanted the extra 6" move.

Personally, I would not push this as an issue in a game but I think it's specific enough issue that needs noting. I miss the old 'Rulzboyz' days...

EDIT: I'm going to leave what I wrote because it was part of a thinking process and that is what I needed tbh... I do concede "Flat-out" movement for a fast land vehicle on a road or a fast skimmer is 12" to 24", I needed to play devil's advocate to think through the process. My original thought and concern still remains about non-fast vehicles moving on a road 18" and disembarking. So as an example, a Rhino can do it..but even a fast land vehicle can't, given RAW. I dunno, I find it stupid that a slower vehicle is able to disembark troops at 18" while a fast land based transport or fast skimmer transport can't.