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Here is what the tyranid codex states on pg 33 for Winged..

Winged creatures are counted as jump infantry in all respects.

How does this affect a tyrant or other monstrous creature that has wings. Does he no longer benefit from the MC rules since he is counted as jump infantry in all respects?

With RAW I would think he would. Just curious what others may think.

It needs to be FAQ'd.

RAW you're correct but its been this way since the codex came out and no one plays this way and I honestly can't imagine anyone actually making a stink about this or any tournament judge ruling this way.

In the end I think it falls into one of those oddities that exists in the RAW but no one follows because it is ludicrous to the vast majority.

Is there anything in the rules that says models cannot be of multiple classification types?

Danny Internets wrote:Is there anything in the rules that says models cannot be of multiple classification types?

No there isn't, but if you try to follow all the rules together there are most certainly some contradictory issues.

Such as?

Oh I definitely agree that the potential for contradictions exists, but there are many common situations where being both Jump Infantry and a Monstrous Creature do not conflict (such as with regards to denying armor saves in close combat). One of the major issues is how their shooting functions, since the entry for Jump Infantry says to follow the normal Infantry rules while the MC entry has a set of its own.

My main concern is, I am the one who makes the rules calls in the tournaments. I kinda feel the same that it should count as both, or be worded the same as the flight rules in the chaos book.

If a player makes the claim, I was looking to see if anyone else had any input as how to approach it. As it stands now, if one claims that a tyrant with wings can only shoot one weapon, or only needs to be inside of are terrain and not 50% covered to get a cover save, I am not sure how to go about telling him he is wrong. I try to follow the books as closely as possible and try to avoid what I feel the intent is. In this case, the book is fairly cut and dry.

loomisc wrote:My main concern is, I am the one who makes the rules calls in the tournaments. I kinda feel the same that it should count as both, or be worded the same as the flight rules in the chaos book.

If a player makes the claim, I was looking to see if anyone else had any input as how to approach it. As it stands now, if one claims that a tyrant with wings can only shoot one weapon, or only needs to be inside of are terrain and not 50% covered to get a cover save, I am not sure how to go about telling him he is wrong. I try to follow the books as closely as possible and try to avoid what I feel the intent is. In this case, the book is fairly cut and dry.

I feel really sorry for people playing in your tournaments then as they'll have to play one way in your tournaments and another way in every other tournament.

The fact is, there are some cases where the RAW create some truly ludicrous situations and for the sake of the majority of the people in the tournament the TO has to make the call that will make the tournament fun and enjoyable for most of the people involved.

Telling Tyranid players that their winged Tyrant suddenly doesn't follow the rules for a monstrous creature when that is the universally accepted way to play doesn't accomplish anything except to anger the people who have taken the time to convert a winged Tyrant.

Trust me, I am not happy with it any more than you seem to be. But, after discussing it among some of the gamers at the LGS we came up with a solution that I think makes a bit more sense. It was kinda covered in one of the replies above.

The tyrant would still count as a monstrous creature, but would also be ruled by the jump infantry rule. At any point if there were a conflict between the two rules, then jump infantry would take precedence.

So for instance...There is a conflict with the movement rules between JI and MCs. The model would therefore be subject to the jump infantry rules for movement. The same applies for shooting.

As for the close combat areas...there is no conflict with the MC rules so the model would still use the MC rules as stated in the rules.

The only real implication would be that the MC with wings would only be able to fire one weapon as the JI rules override the MC rules. And of course he would move as JI instead of a MC. This would include being able to deep strike in deployment.

I think this is a ruling that I could easily explain and defend using the rules provided in the book as written.



As for feeling sorry for the players, I try to be as fair as possible with all the rules. The problem lies with consistency. It is hard to tell one player that a rule works differently than they thought because of how it is written, and then turn around and tell another that I know the rule says one thing but it should be different so that is how I will rule. I really just try to search and find some ground I can use to explain my ruling.

loomisc wrote:



As for feeling sorry for the players, I try to be as fair as possible with all the rules. The problem lies with consistency. It is hard to tell one player that a rule works differently than they thought because of how it is written, and then turn around and tell another that I know the rule says one thing but it should be different so that is how I will rule. I really just try to search and find some ground I can use to explain my ruling.

I can agree with this last point. Having run tournaments at a couple different game stores, Ruling as close to RAW as humanly possible is really the only solution. However, when the rules interactions were completely ludicrous as above, when called to make a ruling on tha matter, I would first say what I felt the solution SHOULD be, and asked if both players agreed with it. If not, I reverted to RAW. Rules judging IS all about raw in a tournament environment, but I found that if you've built a strong enough rapport with your patrons you can actually help THEM come to an agreement without having to swing the rules hammer around too much.

I think you're better off with applying all of the differences from normal from the monstrous creature and jump infantry rule sections, rather than trying to make the unit fit into the intersection of the two rule sets. But that I haven't looked at the rules to see if there are any explicit contridictions that way.

Thinking about this I can just imagine some 'nid player trying to argue that his flying Hive Tyrant actually counted as Jump Infantry to avoid the various MC targeting and getting cover saves from other models issues. Sure I'd let them play that way! Then once it gets into HtH I'll remind them of that and that since it's not a MC they no longer ignore armor saves either! It's either one rule or both, not one or other as is convenient.

Swordbreaker wrote:Thinking about this I can just imagine some 'nid player trying to argue that his flying Hive Tyrant actually counted as Jump Infantry to avoid the various MC targeting and getting cover saves from other models issues. Sure I'd let them play that way! Then once it gets into HtH I'll remind them of that and that since it's not a MC they no longer ignore armor saves either! It's either one rule or both, not one or other as is convenient.

Which, of course, ignores the written rules.
Great way to illustrate your point!


err wait. . .

Great way to illustrate your point!

Well my point being how some players will take a rule and find some interpretation of it that really benefits them, regardless of what might make sense or of how other rules are written that may effect it. Sort of selective rules interpretation combined with selective rules omission. They try to play it one way and when they find it has negative effects take it back, or take the parts the benefit them from their interpretations of both rules and simply ignore the negatives.

I mean to me I think it is obvious that people should be able too that a Winged Tyrant is supposed to be treated like jump infantry for movement purposes, but still follows all normal MC rules. Selective rules lawyers don't always see these things that way though.

Swordbreaker wrote:
I mean to me I think it is obvious that people should be able too that a Winged Tyrant is supposed to be treated like jump infantry for movement purposes, but still follows all normal MC rules. Selective rules lawyers don't always see these things that way though.

The problem with this line of thinking is that the Winged upgrade does not state movement only. It in fact very implicitly say "in all respects". That is the part of the rule that causes the problem. If they had said moves like jump infantry or counts as jump infantry in movement it would be different. The "all respects" part makes it very open for interpretation, and not necessarily selective.