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I was at the store the other day playing against a redshirt. According to him, you can not pre measure 6 inches off of the icon bearer. So the steps he says, you place the model, and if it is outside of the 6 inches you have to Scatter.

I was not able to find this in the book Rules (of course I could be looking in the wrong spot and missing it). In my opinion this is not correct.. Icons suppose to guide models in without scatter, not guestamantions (yeah I made up a word).

So what is you guys rolling? Pre measure, or no Pre measure and scatter if you off?

Mau

although this isnt explicitly stated anywhere, my gut instinct says no, you cant pre-measure.

you have to take a couple of things into account,

first of all, most of the major aspects of the game dont allow you to pre-measure, such as shooting and checking assault range. you have to declare the action before you measure.

secondly the rules are exclusionary, so if there isnt a rule to say you cant do something, it doesnt mean you can do something.

If Terminators or Obliterators choose to Deep Strike within 6" then they don't scatter. Since the action is 'choosing' rather than 'landing', you should measure before placing these models on the board.

Lesser Daemons must enter the game by Deep Striking within 6" of an Icon. Therefore you should measure before placing them within 6" of an Icon, to make sure you get them within 6".

Either way, you measure and then place the unit.

In the absence of other rules, page 3, Measuring Distances, is the default rule. In this case, you find out whether you are within 6" after placing the first model.

As far as I know, the only exception is for summoned lesser daemons which have to be placed with 6". Since the rules don't offer any guidance for correcting the positioning, I suppose one may as well measure in advance to avoid a series of "Is this okay? How about this position? How about over here?" questions.

There's an explicit allowance for measuring (and remeasuring to one's heart's content) movement in the movement phase. That doesn't seem to apply since you're not measuring the movement of a model from one point to another but instead are checking a distance for positioning.

Nurglitch is correct you 'choose' to Deep Strike within 6" of a model (pg 81 CSM Codex) so you do measure 6" from the Icon.

Is DS Considered a form of Deployment? If so, Under Measuring Distances. It allows measures;

In this case I'm referring to Chaos Daemons. I pre-measured off an Icon for my flamers. You know how those flamers get folks up in arms.

Mau

It counts as movent.

Mausama wrote:Is DS Considered a form of Deployment? If so, Under Measuring Distances. It allows measures;

In this case I'm referring to Chaos Daemons. I pre-measured off an Icon for my flamers. You know how those flamers get folks up in arms.

Mau

Deep striking isn't deployment because deployment happens before the first round of the game. Arriving from reserves, whether by deep strike or other means, is just movement. You can pre-measure your own movement in the movement phase but that doesn't let you measure the distance to another model. BTW, Chaos Daemons book, page 27, "No model in this army is ever placed on the battlefield during deployment."

For Chaos Daemons, the Chaos Icon rule says "When a friendly unit Deep Strikes within 6" of an Icon of Chaos ..." so it's easier to argue that you can't premeasure than it is for the Chaos Space Marine icon and its "If [models] ... choose to do so within 6" of a model carrying an icon ..." rule.

Certainly the intent of the game is that deepstriking can have two forms:

1) Drop wherever you wish, but must then roll for scatter

2) Drop within 6" of a friendly icon and then you will not scatter. Of course you would measure because that is the purpose/intent of this form of deployment. In my opinion, if you declare that you are deep striking "on" an icon then it would be an illegal model placement to be outside 6" of the icon and you would have to correct your model placement, i.e. by measuring. I'm not aware that the rule says "guess a position close to the icon and hope you are not wrong..." In the same way, you don't guess what 2" looks like when disembarking a transport, you measure and place your models.

Perhaps the redshirt meant to say: "If you don't choose to deploy within 6" of an Icon then you have to roll for scatter.

Jon

Chaos Space Marine Lesser Demons have no choice but to deploy within 6" of an Icon, so you most assuredly would measure before placing them. I think that's what Nurglitch was saying.

Dam it, this is a good question... I want to know what others think or how they play it.

Also, this is a great FAQ question for Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Demons.

I've always pre-measured both if my opponent is doing it or if I am.

I believe that everyone would agree that Lesser Demons DS would require a pre-measure, so the real question is what about Terms or Oblids or Demons that can scatter?

Kap N' Krunch wrote:Dam it, this is a good question... I want to know what others think or how they play it.

Also, this is a great FAQ question for Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Demons.

I've always pre-measured both if my opponent is doing it or if I am.

I believe that everyone would agree that Lesser Demons DS would require a pre-measure, so the real question is what about Terms or Oblids or Demons that can scatter?

Chaos Player : "I choose to Deep Strike my Obliterators within 6" of this Icon". Are you going to let the person place the model about 6" (so they may be 5"-7" away) from the Icon, or are you going to measure 6" and properly place the center model?

You cannot "choose" to place your model within that 6", and guess where that 6", there is no reason for not-measuring.

Not trying to beat a dead horse, pg 3 of the rulebook on measuring is says, "In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (e.g. after delaring an assault or firing at an enemy, to work out a rule's area of effect, when deploying their forces, etc.)

First, it is a general rule, meaning their could be exceptions. Second you are trying "to work out a rule's area of effect. Therefore you can measure. Can we call it good and move on?

Different examples:

Lesser Daemons must be placed within 6" of the icon. You pull your tape out to 6" and use it to determine where they can be placed.

Using Icon to help Terminators and Obliterators not scatter. I think pre-measuring would go against the the rule "In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (e.g. after delaring an assault or firing at an enemy, to work out a rule's area of effect, when deploying their forces, etc.)"

In short, you should not be able to pre-measure anything that has to do with deep-striking, hence the risk.

- Blackbone

Blackbone wrote:Different examples:

Lesser Daemons must be placed within 6" of the icon. You pull your tape out to 6" and use it to determine where they can be placed.

Using Icon to help Terminators and Obliterators not scatter. I think pre-measuring would go against the the rule "In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (e.g. after delaring an assault or firing at an enemy, to work out a rule's area of effect, when deploying their forces, etc.)"

In short, you should not be able to pre-measure anything that has to do with deep-striking, hence the risk.

- Blackbone

How are these examples different than anything already posted?

As I posted previously a player cannot "choose" to deep strike within 6" of an icon, and then place it 8" away, that would be illegal.

You can measure, because you are working out a rule's area of effect, the area of effect in this case is within 6" of the icon model.

first of all, most of the major aspects of the game dont allow you to pre-measure, such as shooting and checking assault range. you have to declare the action before you measure.

You do have to measure for movement, and arriving on the board from being summoned is movement!

So the steps he says, you place the model, and if it is outside of the 6 inches you have to Scatter.

Your redshirt needs to read the damn rules. Page 61 of the Chaos Codex. There is no arriving outside of 6", period. This is not up for debate. It's either inside 6" or not at all. That's RAW and RAI!!!

Also, wouldnt that fall into the measurement rule?

"In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (e.g. after delaring an assault or firing at an enemy,to work out a rule's area of effect, when deploying their forces, etc.)"

The icon has a rule that allows people to not scatter when they deploy within 6" of it. You measure the area of effect.

guess weapons did/do this, you place the blast marker anywhere on the table, if its in range thats where the shot scatters from.

however if your using lesser deamons first then deploying oblits or other DS things that would be a form of premeasuring. place all of your scatter units, then place the ones that have to be within 6"

this is a very good question but honestly, your allowed to premeasure your movment, but if you start checking ranges with that then your just become TFG.