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I've been creating my own custom characters for my Greenskin army to serve as generic HQ models (Warphead, Big Mek, Warboss), but because I am trying to put a lot of unique character into their backgrounds and the way they function, I thought it'd be nice to put together casual datasheets for them. When I have all of the numbers finalized (after playtesting and such) I'm going to put it together on a PDF much like GW's datasheet releases.

Okay, now guys, I need your concerted efforts on rules and balancing. Ready?

I am working up a datasheet for my giant warboss (see this thread if you don't know what I'm talking about). I wanted to price him around or equivalent to Ghazzie or the new Calgar, and make him a Monstrous creature. I've been relying a fair bit on Calgar's new numbers, as I figure my boss is about his equivalent in ork terms.

------------------------------------

Points: 250

WS: 5(6)
BS: 2
S: 5
T: 6
W: 5
I: 3
A: 5
LD: 10
SV: 6+/4+i

Unit: Waaaghboss Gargrim "'Uge" Mungus

Type: Monstrous Creature

Weapons and Equipment:
> Waaagh! Banner
> Da Fistz 'Uv Gork 'An Mork:
Counts as two power klawz.
Ranged attack profile as follows:
Range 24", Str 5, AP4, Assault 3, Twin-linked

Special Rules:
Independent Character
Furious Charge
Fearless
Waaagh!
Mob Rule
Eternal Warrior
Feel No Pain
Fists of Unusual Size: Gargrim's fists are roughly the size of a Space Marine; even the most agile opponent is hard-pressed to avoid something so massive. Gargrim can re-roll all failed attempts to wound in close combat.
Proper Tuff: From his earliest days, Gargrim has been absurdly thick-skinned. Due to his immense size and toughness, Gargrim possesses a 4+ invulnerable save in addition to his normal 6+ armor save.
NOW it'z a FIGHT!: Gargrim is often bored silly, even in the thickest melee; he is often distracted and off-step until he faces a legitimate challenge. As such, he receives an additional +1 attack when reduced below three wounds.

----------------------------

This is what I've put together so far. Bottom line is that he gets 7 rerollable-wound PK hits in CC on the charge (5 base, +1 for two klawz, +1 for charging) , which is probably too much. Part of me thinks it's underpriced, but I think based on Calgar's new 250-point price and the absurd things he can do (reroll shooting wounds, orbital bombardment, anyone in the damn army can pass or fail morale at will) it's reasonably fair.

As far as the guns go, he gets a higher volume of shots than Calgar does, but Calgar's are BS5 AP2, whereas Gargrim's are BS2 AP4. Also Calgar can reroll his wounds on shooting.

I also sort've want to work his grot helper (Urk) in somehow, but I can't think of anything aside from counting him as a bosspole (since he's holding a bosspole).

Am I nuts? I've tried giving up Calgar's ranged ability and armor save for more of a close combat character, and I've swapped some of his special rules around for orky equivalents. Help me refine this.

Also.

I know it's silly trying to defend points cost for custom-made characters, as they're always open for abuse and it's safer to overcost than undercost. Just for comparison, though, I was messing around with making a Hive Tyrant of comparable stats.

For 165 points, I can put together something with almost the same stat line.. WS6, BS3, S5, T6, 4W, I5, 5 attacks, LD10, 2+ armor save and 6+ inv.

It has one less wound, but I consider the higher BS and I to balance that out in terms of cost. Let's call it 170, though.

Since there's no equivalent to power klaws in the nid roster that I can see, let's pay +50 points for 2 power klaws (+25 points each is what it costs a Nob to get them). We're at 220.

Switching a 2+/6+i for a 6+/4+i/FNP is I think about an even trade, though I think the 2+ is in general more survivable. (I am not good enough with statistics to tell, but I think a 1/6 chance of taking a wound is better than a 1/2, and then a 1/2 after that... so 1/4 chance to take a wound from anything at all, with a 4+/FNP? I'm not sure that's too bad.) Obviously there are higher AP weapons that will screw with the results of that.

The difference in shooting is pretty significant. The tyrant I put together has none. The boss is wearing what is essentially a Warbike on his arms in terms of ranged weaponry. A warbike costs 25 points, and comes with a rider with 2 wounds who is not that bad in CC and a built in 4+ cover save. I think for just the gun and based off the cost of a Big Shoota (10 points, 36" range, same stats as the warbike, but no twin-linking), adding 15 points to the cost is reasonable, which brings us to 235.

The special rules (reroll wounds in CC, +1A when under 3 wounds) make up the rest of the cost. It's probably underpriced in terms of what you get for that (270 is fairer). Still, if you think of the cost of a pair of lightning claws which allow rerolls versus the +50 we added for two power klawz, it's not that bad.

Thoughts: Monstrous Creatures can't join units. The Mob Rule and Bosspole are useless to him.

Urk's banner could count as a Waaagh! Banner that affects every unit within 6" of Gargrim.

His fists should probably re-roll to hit, if it's hard to avoid them. That change would probably make him a tad more expensive, though.

I'd go with 275 for the points.

Ditch the Monstrous Creatures thing, then. I realized it was pretty pointless, because he's already got power fists, so ignoring armor saves isn't going to do him any good, and Move Through Cover's useless in a unit. I expect to run him with Nobz pretty regularly.

Thanks for the input, though. I thought rerolls to hit might be a bit much, given the fact that the wounds would be resolved at S10 (2+ to pretty much everything)... I'm not sure about that yet.

I like your idea about Urk counting as a Waaagh Banner. A lot. I'll probably add that in and bump him up to 275. WS7 might be a bit overboard though... Unless his stats were something like WS: 5(6)

T6 with 5 wounds, a 4+ invulnerable and FNP makes something that really wont go down easily. the amount of fire power it would take to kill this thing is incredible. add to that that he gets 6 S10 attacks at WS6 that reroll to wound, i think it takes him into the range of 275+. i dont think you can use comparative pricing from two different codecies when making special characters. i think its better to be sensible and play it by ear. come up with a cost that you think is reasonable. its not an easy task and takes a bit of practice but its much better than trying to justify a points cost using an obscure referencing system.

i like to concep but there are just a few fluffy things that bother me.

why do his fists (which are only the size of a space marines) that are incredibly hard to avoid give him reroll to wound and not reroll to hit?

why does his skin, which is less think than a carnifex, give him an invulnerable save when a carnifexes does not?

Regwon wrote:T6 with 5 wounds, a 4+ invulnerable and FNP makes something that really wont go down easily. the amount of fire power it would take to kill this thing is incredible. add to that that he gets 6 S10 attacks at WS6 that reroll to wound, i think it takes him into the range of 275+. i dont think you can use comparative pricing from two different codecies when making special characters. i think its better to be sensible and play it by ear. come up with a cost that you think is reasonable. its not an easy task and takes a bit of practice but its much better than trying to justify a points cost using an obscure referencing system.

I do get what you're saying about not using comparative pricing across books, because armies are all built differently, but I think grounding it in some sort of references helps give it some credibility, rather than 'this is my dude he is three hundred points'.

Would knocking him back to T5 be fair, if I wanted to keep him at 250?

why do his fists (which are only the size of a space marines) that are incredibly hard to avoid give him reroll to wound and not reroll to hit?

I thought being able to reroll hits on a S10 thing was a bit overboard. He'll already wound most things on a 2+, so letting him reroll the occasional 1 is not nearly as pivotal as letting him reroll any misses to hit, which would be much more prevalent. (Hitting on 3+ on most things) The 'hard to avoid' thing was just a fluff detail. It could just as easily be changed to 'hit like a trukk'.

why does his skin, which is less think than a carnifex, give him an invulnerable save when a carnifexes does not?

This is a good point, I suppose. It's mostly because I gave the model itself no armor aside from the arms, so I felt an armor save would be unjustified, and that an invulnerable save fit in better with the orky mentality of being bulletproof. Orks are generally represented as being resistant to pain and tough (chop the head off, stitch it back on, everything's still a-OK). The way I understood it, the Carnifex's 'skin' is what gives it that juicy 2+ armor save, and an armor save on an unarmored ork wouldn't make sense, so an invuln half as good as what a fex has got with FNP would suffice. Ignoring AP, the Carnifex is still statistically less likely to suffer a wound, anyway.

Regwon wrote:

why does his skin, which is less think than a carnifex, give him an invulnerable save when a carnifexes does not?

Read his blog, he uses those fists to block incoming fire which more then justifies the invulnerable save. Personally, I think this guy should have a better armour save. I'm sure his skin is tougher then that of a normal ork so giving him 5+ or 4+ would make sense to me.

It's a great model and some great rules. I'd love to face your army in apocalypse with all these custom characters running around.

Lucas

I think the invul should probably go down to 5+, as I see 4+ as very strong, with 5+ being the standard for most things with invuls that aren't speciallized for it (Tzeentch, storm shield).

Also, Monstrous Creatures can join units if they are independent, but they can be picked out in shooting (see Ctan). He should have monstrous, as it makes lots of sense, you should be able to pick out something 3x as big as the other people in the squad, but he should be able to lead a squad. It gives him 2d6 for tanks (I think, the PKs might negate this), so it is really a negative, but should be in there.

I think he should confer Fearless to his unit, as you're not running with that at your side, but that makes the bosspole useless. Oh well, it makes much more sense fluff wise.

The waaagh banner thing seems like a good idea as well, and maybe he could be 5 (6), with adding +1 WS as well for his "NOW it'z a FIGHT" special rule.

On a consistancy related note, that will have basically no effect on gameplay, he should be I 4, as that is what a normal boss is, even though he will still be going at I 1 for klaws. It might help his breaking away. I was also thinking something along the lines of not being able to not use his fists, as what else would he attack with.

His survivability seems fairly good though. He will shrug off bolters, as they need a 6 to wound, and then you have a 4+/4+ (or 5+/4+, if you change the invul to 5+). Rockets can wound easily, but he will still get his saves against them, and lascannons will wound easily, and will only get his invul. This seems consistant with the fluff, as he has taken multiple rockets and bolters and other solid shots, but may be lacking in his energy beam experience. Possibly knocking his T down 1 could be an option, especially if you want to keep his points down, as his mass could reflect his wounds, not his toughness.

Thats all I have for the actual rules.

For points, I'd say 300ish if you go with the stronger part of my post (4+i, MC, keeping T6, the waaagh Banner, with WS 5(6), and the +1 at 3W), but staying around 250ish if you go 5+i, MC, T5, and the WS stuff.

I am on the fence about a 5+i, especially if he keeps Monstrous Creature, because he will be eating lascannon shots and basically every heavy weapon on the board if he keeps his MC status, and those things will ignore Feel No Pain as well. By the time he hits CC against most armies I play against, I'd be lucky if he had one wound left.

I do like the Waaagh Banner idea instead of a Bosspole, particularly considering the Fearless thing. I'll make him 5(6). +1 WS for the 'NOW it'z a FIGHT!' rule might be a bit overboard, but it's the sort of thing playtesting would determine, I guess.

If he's fearless, I don't think he's going to be breaking away from things any time soon, and given his size I like to consider him a bit lumbering in terms of speed. All a higher I will do is make it easier for him to sweep things, which might be excessive.

I have been thinking of keeping his T about the same, but dropping Eternal Warrior so that he's still succeptible to Force Weapons and the likes. I'm not sure, though, cause characters like Calgar, Ghazzie, and Abbadon (all priced around his range) all have 'no one-shotting' rules. He's currently T6 though, so he's safe from S10 weaponry.

Edit: Updated the first post with a few changes (Waaagh Banner, WS5(6)

Also, don't loose sleep over the WS issue, as from 5-8 is fairly uniform, and doesn't cause many differences. Special characters, genestealers, and harliquins are about the only ones I can think of, and he seems like he has the experience to have a very high WS.

The T issue I am kind of on the fence about. A strong argument could be made for either 5 or 6, so you could do either, just adjust the points accordingly. I kind of feel 6 is better, as he should be just shrugging off bolter rounds, and that makes them wound him 1/2 as much.

Arglebooster wrote:Also, don't loose sleep over the WS issue, as from 5-8 is fairly uniform, and doesn't cause many differences. Special characters, genestealers, and harliquins are about the only ones I can think of, and he seems like he has the experience to have a very high WS.

The T issue I am kind of on the fence about. A strong argument could be made for either 5 or 6, so you could do either, just adjust the points accordingly. I kind of feel 6 is better, as he should be just shrugging off bolter rounds, and that makes them wound him 1/2 as much.

Ghazzie is T5, as a measure, but he's also wearing 2+ armor and he's got Eternal Warrior from his Adamantium Skull. If I make the boss T5, I'm keeping EW, though I think I'd prefer 6 and drop EW, as he is bigger than Ghazzie is (in terms of model).

Ironically my main opponent owns my old Grey Knight army, so I wouldn't be surprised if I end up getting Force Weaponed to the head every couple games.

Regular Warbosses are T5. This is your Warboss, which makes a regular Warboss look like a Snotling.

T6 at minimum for him. He's huge!!!

BYE

I just discovered an additional caveat: Monstrous Creatures can't ride in vehicles, meaning I can either leave it as a downside (he has to footslog, always, cause no vehicle is big enough to carry him) or drop the MC thing. Really, MC is just a penalty on him, since he already ignores armor saves, but it might help keep things fairer leaving it on.

I sort've find the idea that no vehicle is big enough for him entertaining, as well, but I'm sure he'd force the meks to build him something after long enough. Maybe keep his MC status, but include a special rule stating that he can only ride on a Battlewagon? (Counts as transporting 3 infantry). It seems unfair to allow him to zoom across the board in a trukk and smash faces in, but Ghazzie can do that without any problem in Mega Armor.

I'll obviously fix this in Apoc games by putting him on a Gargantuan Squiggoth, though.

Actually, easiest way to handle it might be that he may not ride on vehicles unless they can transport a minimum of 20 infantry. That'd include wagons, skullhammas (the baneblade transports), squiggies, etc.

Okay, here's the current statline for the boss as of right now, with all the changes in place. I think it needs playtesting now.

Points: 250

Stats:
WS: 5(6)
BS: 2
S: 5
T: 6
W: 5
I: 3
A: 5
LD: 10
SV: 6+/4+1

Unit: Waaaghboss Gargrim "'Uge" Mungus

Type: Infantry

Weapons and Equipment:
> Waaagh! Banner
> Da Fistz 'Uv Gork 'An Mork: Counts as two power klawz. Ranged attack profile as follows: Range 24", Str 5, AP4, Assault 3, Twin-linked

Special Rules:
Independent Character
Furious Charge
Fearless
Waaagh!
Feel No Pain

Hamma-Handz: Gargrim's fists are roughly the size of a Space Marine, and hit like a runaway trukk. Gargrim can re-roll all failed attempts to wound in close combat.

Proppa Tuff: From his earliest days, Gargrim has been absurdly thick-skinned. Due to his immense size and toughness, Gargrim possesses a 4+ invulnerable save in addition to his normal 6+ armor save.

NOW it'z a FIGHT!: Gargrim is often bored silly, even in the most desperate melee; he is often distracted and off-step -sometimes to the point of nodding off - until he faces a legitimate challenge. As such, he receives an additional +1 attack when reduced below three wounds.

Biggest an' Best: With Gargrim's legendary bulk comes an ego to match - one that views most ork boyz as inferior and expendable. Gargrim will only join units of Nobz or Mega-Armored Nobz. Additionally, he may be targeted separately from any unit he has joined, though he remains an Infantry model.

Make Room, ye Gitz!: Gargrim may only be transported in vehicles with a passenger capacity of 20 or more - otherwise da trukk tips over. Gargrim's massive frame and penchant for comfort cause him to take up a full five spots in any transport vehicle.

Nice rules, I'm already looking forward to the datasheets for your other characters

The rules seem okay, I think what he needs is some sort of special move he can use against MCs and Cybots. Some sort of Ork Shoryuken

As special rule for Urk, maybe he could count as somesort of bosspole for nearby Grot units, because he inspires them or something like that.

Haha

Headlock: Enemy Monstrous Creature is reduced to 1 attack the following turn.

I was more thinking of something like this...


Just with Dakka instead of flames

This is obviously anecdotal evidence, but I just finished with some playtesting of Gargrim, and I could not be happier. Priced at 250, he seems to be pretty great.

Some testing results:

Gargrim and a Nobz Mob with 4 Big Choppas, 3 Power Klawz, a Painboy, and all Cybork Bodies (625 points) pitted against Marneus Calgar (new marine dex) with an honor guard and champion (also 625 points). We started the units 4d6" away from eachother, which resulted in a 13" separation between the two units. Calgar's marines rolled for the first turn in our test, and they stayed in place, shooting with their boltguns. Nothing was wounded thanks to the 5+ invulns of the regular nobz. Gargrim weathered Calgar's special stormbolters without trouble.

Ork turn: Orks advanced 6". We did not use a Waaagh! for this, because it did not seem fair to introduce to the test game, so they were left at 7" away from the Marines. Orks shot, Gargrim's gun took out one honor guard but that was it.

Marines assaulted the orks in the following turn. They took out 5 nobz, while the nobz in turn were able to dispatch 5 of the honor guard. Calgar swung at Gargrim and put three wounds on the big guy. We discovered a flaw in my rules: Does he get the +1 A from being under 3 wounds if it happens at the same time he's swinging at? (I1). We said no, it would happen next turn, so Gargrim got his 6 attacks back, but failed to actually wound Calgar thanks to Calgar's invulnerable.

Following turn: The marines drop a Nob and the painboy, leaving me with 3 PK nobz and Gargrim. PK nobz swung back, and killed all of the rest of the honor guard. Gargrim swung at Calgar, put one wound on him. Calgar swung back at Gargrim, and killed the giant ork.

Following turn: Calgar swings at the PK nobz, kills them all. Simultaneously, PK nobz all swing at Calgar, and kill him.

Conclusion: 625 points of Calgar and Honor Guard and 625 points of Gargrim and Nobz both annihilated eachother to the man, leaving nothing left on the board. I consider that a perfect stalemate, and pretty good indication of balance. I think if the orks had charged, they would have come out on top, but also in the interest of fairness they would have been shot at a lot more by the marine army in a normal game, so there wouldn't have been as many of them. All in all, I consider the fact that they completely stalemated a great sign.

Durability test: This one was a bit sillier, but we just wanted to see how long it took 250 points of Devastators to bring down 250 points of Gargrim. Gargrim started at 48" away across the board, and ran every turn for an average of 8 inches. He was pretty easy to slay with lascannon fire; 15 shots were fired, 9 of them wounded, and he failed 5 of those saves. At the time he died, he was 20" away from the devastators, and had shot his gun once, with one of the shots hitting and wounding but not causing a casualty.

Lastly, we played a 1,500 game featuring Gargrim in a wagon with Nobz against terminators, tactical marines, and dreadnoughts. In general Gargrim did not feel overpowered, largely because the Nobz were making a ridiculous number of saves and doing a ton of damage - there was a lot of luck involved on the ork side in this one. Gargrim actually rarely even got to hit the things that were assaulted, because his Nobz retinue pretty much killed everything before he had the chance. I don't consider this evidence of much, honestly, because the Nobz made about 1000% more saves than they should have been able to with only their 5+ invuln cybork bodies, but at least Gargrim didn't end up overpowering things.

Overall: I am pretty happy with the way this has worked out so far. I need to test against other opponents than standard marines, which will come in the next few days, but for now he seems excellent. I still can't get over the fact that he and Calgar completely stalemated. I consider that a great success.

Make Room, ye Gitz!: Gargrim may only be transported in vehicles with a passenger capacity of 20 or more - otherwise da trukk tips over. Gargrim's massive frame and penchant for comfort cause him to take up a full five spots in any transport vehicle.

I bet now you think it was a bad idea selling your battlewagon

-_- Don't remind me. I find it hilariously ironic that the moment I sell my Battlewagon off, I suddenly need a Battlewagon. Isn't that always the way?

I'll just have to make a new one. Or I'll finish that Baneblade off and use it as one for now until the new kit comes out.

hes basicly a close combat calgar
its a good idea
just get a nice cool background for him

I just finished smashing all of this together into a single PDF file.


http://www.fusedcreations.com/adam/waaaghboss.pdf

I'd appreciate some feedback on it, but even more, I would love it if anyone out there would give it a bit of playtesting as well, to subject it to conditions I have not yet forseen/considered.

Well, got a suggestion for Urk.

I was thinking how smug he looks up there with his important looking hat and what a good view he'd get from up on Gargrim's shoulder... so:

Look Boss Look!![b Urk, keen eyed grot, universally despised by the rest of the ork army, sits on Gargrim's shoulder and gleefully reports on the boyz to his master, allowing Gargrim to indulge in his first love, reducing opponents to paste. Should any ork unit break or rout from the battlefield/cc etc within 30" or move into 30" of Gargrim as a result of such, Urk will begin jumping up and down and screetching to the Waaaghboss about the unit's shameful display, since this has lead to Gargrim butchering the offending unit after the battle, Urk's reputation as a 'bleedin grass' and his handy to spot miniature boss pole will cause any unit to grind to a halt and get on with the battle lest they get 'grassed to the guv'na' and 'torn a new one'...

Maybe keep his MC status, but include a special rule stating that he can only ride on a Battlewagon?

I would think that Gargrim would be none too happy to share his pimped out ork ride with the lower lifeforms....perhaps keep the MC, but limit him to the battlewagon and not allow it to transport any other orks besides him. After all, if you gits wanna ride, then get yer own and stop takin up me space!!!

Barthonis wrote:

Maybe keep his MC status, but include a special rule stating that he can only ride on a Battlewagon?

I would think that Gargrim would be none too happy to share his pimped out ork ride with the lower lifeforms....perhaps keep the MC, but limit him to the battlewagon and not allow it to transport any other orks besides him. After all, if you gits wanna ride, then get yer own and stop takin up me space!!!

Eh, the rules are halfway there in that he can only ride on a battlewagon without a killkannon in non-apoc games. Further, his rules state he takes up 5 spots in the transport, which limits the number of MANz he could drag along.

It didn't seem fair to make it so that he couldn't ride with a retinue in the wagon, largely because he already has a rule that allows him to be picked out from the rest of the nobz as a target. Plus, again, Ghazzie only takes up 2 spots in a normal Transport, and can drive around in something as fast as a Trukk. Making Gargrim take up a full 20 is a bit unreasonable

I guess I was looking at it from more of a fluff angle.

Looks really great. I like S6. With a PowerKlaw, it's s12! I know that it's not really, but it's still funny. The fluff behind the rules is great, and I wish I could face him on the table. I'm not so sure about rules since I'm not that experienced, but you look like you've done a great job. A really great job.

I'd separate out Proppa Tuff into Proppa Tuff (FNP) and Look Out Boss! (4+ Inv) representing Urk keeping an eye out for any large ordnance being flung Gargrim's way. Regardless, I think Urk needs a special rule other than just holding the banner.