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I have not played a significant number of games in 7th edition, with most of my games coming early on. So, I'm looking for some feedback from players who have a bit more experience with the current metagame.

Early in 7th edition, my super-reliable Skaven weapon teams suddenly became a liability. I was running into Wood Elves every other game and even the Empire and Dwarf armies I was seeing were shooting my weapons teams out before I could get them into position to do any damage. I went from using them always (overpowered as the ratling guns were in 6th), to using them as flank-guarders, to hiding them in behind units and waiting for opportunities at the end of games to pop them out.

Times change and suddenly the top two armies seem to be Vampire Counts and Demons. Neither has good shooting power and both have units that seem susceptible to magic-powered gatling guns. Is there a consensus on the usefulness of Skaven weapon teams, (Ratling guns in particular)?

Perhaps this got no response because it wasn't posted in the correct forum. I wanted, however, to lead it into a discussion on what I would replace the guns with, if it was deemed sensible to do so.

I usually ran the following

almost naked warlord
two engineers

2 blocks of clanrats
2 blocks of slaves

night runners
gutter runners
tunnelling team
rat ogres
jezzails

WLC

Rat ogres suck the bone. That is without a doubt. I bought a unit of plague monks to replace them. They've met with a little success in the few games I've played since returning.

I look at my original list and I think I relied a lot on those ratling guns. So, do I stick with them and chew up demons and skeletons, or do I need to replace them with something that isn't an arrow-magnet?

I have not played any games with 7th ed yet. What changed to cause the ratling guns to be able to be targeted?

My experiance with Plague monks is they work great if you get a unit to shield them. Plague censor bearers are good for this as are some night runners. I like skirmishers for this roll as they can get out of the way easily enough and they are usualy cheap enough that they can spread out a bit past the sides of the unit to provide extra cover from angles. In a pinch you can use a unit of slaves to guard them but they definantly need some form of ratty shield. Also, I nogiced you don't have any globadiers. Those guys are great and may be a decnet alternative to your ratling guns if you decide to go that way. If I remember correctly thier attacks are also magic.

Hey Crippler.. hows Moncton? This is O-Club

Damien: Weapons teams used to benefit from the proximity rule that characters enjoyed so much, where if you were within 5" of a unit of at least 5 models, you couldn't be targeted.

That rule is now gone, and so weapons teams are fair game. I suspect that when they redo the Skaven book, if they keep weapons teams they'll get a special rule to protect them.

Manfred: Thanks. I played skaven a lot in 6th and knew the proximity rule. I haven't looked at 7th ed yet as about the time it came out we started playing 40K again.

I would hope they get a rule to protect them otherwise I can see where the problem come in. Of course you could still just leave them between the slaves and the clanrats, get the slaves in combat and shoot into it. Another thing that I'm not sure if it would work or not as it's been a year or so since I last looked at my skaven codex. Do the weapon teams count as IC or as a team? If they count as IC is there anything saying they can't join a unit? If not you could stick the gun in the front rank of it's parent unit. This will make your clanrats less mobile but protect the guns a bit. Like I said I can't remember if there is anything that forbids this or not. The other thing which I think is WAY closer to the dark side of the rules if it's possible at all. Can you join the gun to a unit of night runners?

Just some crazy thoughts from a caffene deprived individual.

Why should they be protected? Do Skaven not have enough exemptions from normal rules?

Just stick them behind your units, and use Night and Gutter Runners to screen them or engage the enemy shooty stuff in what ought to be a one sided fight. Then pop them out.

No need to protect them if you just use a little tactical acumen.

While they may be treated as IC's for targetting purposes, they aren't characters and therefore can't join units.

That's what I thought. Like I said I haven't looked at the skaven codex in over a year so couldn't remember the details.

In that case all you can do is screen them and hope you can kill more of their units in combat than you do yours.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Why should they be protected? Do Skaven not have enough exemptions from normal rules?

Just stick them behind your units, and use Night and Gutter Runners to screen them or engage the enemy shooty stuff in what ought to be a one sided fight. Then pop them out.

No need to protect them if you just use a little tactical acumen.

I'm not saying that they should or shouldn't be protected. I'm just saying that when 7th edition came out my weapons teams either a) turned into pincushions as soon as they were in range or b) spent the whole game hiding behind units, getting only one good turn of shooting per game, which would make it hard to get their points back. In early 7th, Wood Elves were everywhere, so that didn't help matters.

So, now, things have changed in the metagame and tournaments seem to be featuring a lot of Vampires and Demons - two armies who won't shoot my weapon teams out. Is it time to take the weapon teams back out?

edit: added missing word

Matt Varnish wrote:Hey Crippler.. hows Moncton? This is O-Club

Holy FNO-CLUB! As if I wouldn't recognize Matt Varnish.
Moncton is alright man. Things are busy. Married with a kid now. So that means I've got a sweet basement game room and no time to play in it.
hehheh
How are things? PM me and tell me whats up!

On the original post= I have played against Skaven who had rattling guns, I play VC and had no trouble against the rattling guns. The big mistake I saw with what my opponent did was focus those on my Skeletons. Granted he was doing anywhere from 12-25 wounds form all of the shooting I was raising equal to more than he was killing. I would focus on the big guys or more expensive units with them.

Drazhar - If I can kill as many skeletons as the VC general can raise every turn just with my shooting and magic, then I'll take that draw every time. It means I'm not getting run over in the magic phase, which is where VC are at their most dangerous. Raise away and I'll simply throw all my defences into stopping the movement spells.

The other problem with hiding them behind a unit is that that there are lots of flanking forces which will be able to hit their parent unit without ever having to facea shot from the guns due to their limited range. Do they work against scouts behind your lines? Absolutely. As long as those scouts don't come equipped with missile weapons.

So, I could drop the two ratling guns and get a big unit of jezzails. Does that make more sense?

ratling guns can only be used with a slave meatshield that runs forward, asks to shot along the way and (if they don't run) get in combat while leaving your other stuff realitively unharmed so you can shoot in combat and (more importantly) if you got plague monks, in line. jezzails need protection from war machine destroyers and have to be at 18 inches to be effective so your choice but skryre is very limited in tactics these days... these are the days of pestilens!!!

A bit o'threadomancy here, but I just wanted to return to this question with a bit more experience under my belt. To all the folks who said 'don't worry' and play them like always, I call BS. If you're playing against good opponents those ratling guns simply won't last. Each one costs 60 points and dies the moment it shows it's face. There are simply too many ways to kill it, especially since it no longer gets the -1 to hit bonus for being a skirmisher. When you consider how much damage they can do and the ease with which they can be killed, there's no reason for the enemy general to not put a unit of of ranged weapon troops on a hill and shoot over my intervening troops to kill them.