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Straightforward question.

wave serpent moved, eldrad tried to fire off this power. I argued that it was "a shooting attack" which means the vehicle would require a firing point for the infantry model to fire from.

even though the attack doesn't require line of sight, it is still a shooting type power. firing points specify the number of transported models that may fire a shooting attack from the vehicle itself.

thoughts?

NaZ

Shooting power, and the vehicle has no fire points. I'd say no.

Eldar FAQ lists which powers count as shooting attacks, Eldritch Storm is on that list. Ergo, cannot be used from a vehicle without a firing point.

Eldritch Storm is a shooting power that doesn't require LOS so it can be used from within a wave serpent or falcon.

i'm not questioning the line of sight issue. its that fire points are there to dictate the number of models that can fire from within the vehicle.

since a wave serpent has 0, it must be assumed that 0 models can shoot. otherwise the exarch could bladestorm out of one.

NaZ

Except Blade storm shots require LOS. Cheesedrad's Psychic power does not.

LOS is irrelevent to fire points. here is what it says:

Fire Points pg 66

A transport vehicle may have a number of fire points defined in its entry. a fire point is a hatch or gun slit from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle can fire (or use a psychic power)

Unless specified differently in the vehicle's entry, a single passenger may fire out of a fire point and the other transported models may not fire.

seems pretty straightforward that psychic powers used in the shooting phase require a fire point.

NaZ

Eldritch Storm counts as a shooting attack per the FAQs however in the FAQs there is this
"(Although they include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules as specified in their descriptions)"

Going back to the codex for possible exceptions states that LOS isn't required. Fire points according to page 66 clearly are talking about how LOS and range is measured from the port.

A RAW interpretation would prevent Eldritch Storm from firing. But it feels like a square peg in a round hole. Because the fire point rules are clearly talking about weapons and psychic powers requiring LOS.

glad you could make it to the thread sazzle.

don't think i'm trying to shoot down the idea. I always take one side or the other in a rules debate.

ONCE AGAIN.. another technicality that could desperately use a FAQ for clarity.

I could see it from the non LOS point allowing him to, and the fire points which wouldn't allow it.

from fluff, its not like the tank wouldn't have some sort of crystal to conduct his psychic energy through the hull. but the game isn't about fluff.

grumble I hate inconsistencies like this.

sorry it came up in our game sazzle, hopefully you don't run into this at ard boyz
but if you run your eldar, I'd be prepared for it.

NaZ

No worries Naz, every once in a while I need to experiment with... what happens if I do something that I know I shouldn't ever do.... aka dismembark eldrad and friends near Ghazgul and his powerclaw nob friends. Let snikrot sneakup on half my army, but even still that game was still a challenge for both, and even better for me cause I pulled out a tie on turn 7 after losing half my army on turn 2. I can assure you that the effectiveness of snikrot and ghaz will be severely mitigated in our next match up.

When's the next game? :-)

You know I'm still thinking about this one, technically RAW says no (if a vehicle lacks a firing port then shooting attacks and powers may not be used) however, it doesn't make sense since a psychic power that has an effect that doesnt require LOS maybe be used even if there is no firing port such as fortune or doom. We know from reading that firing ports are for attacks that require LOS. So firing ports shouldn't be a restriction for Eldritch Storm as it doesn't require LOS to function, so based on RAI you should be allowed to use Eldritch Storm.

However its not a big issue because.... if a vehicle moves more than 6" you need to pop out to use the abilty, thus you get a range of 6+2-3+18 = 26-28 vs stay in the vehicle 6+the length of the hull from target probably 3-4" + 18 = 27-29.

The only difference that "No LOS required" makes is if the vehicle had a fire point in the first place. Because he could then Eldritch Storm something hiding behind a big solid peice of LOS blocking terrain. That's the only difference that exception makes. By RAW you cannot use that power from a vehicle.

If the psycker can shoot through a big solid peice of LOS blocking terrain to whats behind it, or past a LOS blocking vehicle if it were in between him and whatever he's dropping the storm on.. then what's the difference if the psycker is in the vehicle or not. The only difference is a poorly written rule that doesn't apply due to the exception provided in the Eldar codex. In essence the specific entry in the Eldar codex overrules the general rule in the rulebook.

RogalDorn wrote:The only difference that "No LOS required" makes is if the vehicle had a fire point in the first place. Because he could then Eldritch Storm something hiding behind a big solid peice of LOS blocking terrain. That's the only difference that exception makes. By RAW you cannot use that power from a vehicle.

For your game, you can rule however you like. Nobody will be affected but you, and you know how you want to do it.

Against any other opponent or at any sanctioned event, it's going to be rules as written and you can't fire if you have no fire point.

which is why we were playing -ard boyz practice. to see things like that come up. regardless of how we play it in house, it was all about figuring out stuff like this

once again.. go go stupid GW poorly written codexes! hire an editor who plays the game already yeesh.

don't even get me started on ork rules

NaZ

Can someone point me at the rule or faq that allows non shooty psychic powers from inside vehicles? The only reference to embarked models I've seen so far is about objectives and troops inside transports measuring distance from the hull.

bump

Krak_kirby wrote:Can someone point me at the rule or faq that allows non shooty psychic powers from inside vehicles? The only reference to embarked models I've seen so far is about objectives and troops inside transports measuring distance from the hull.

And that second reference (from page 66) is what matters. Remember, these are powers that work as listed unless specified otherwise. Nothing in the transport rules denies them the ability to use non-shooting psychic powers while embarked on a vehicle, so they can.

And they measure the range from the hull of the vehicle as clarified on page 66.