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Well, here's what I'm taking to the SEMIS.....what do you guys think? my only sore spot in testing is LOTS of tyranid MC.........The list has faired very well vs mech eldar, blood angels, mech tau, mech IG, Daemonhunters, Sisters and Ork Horde.......Those are whatI have playtested against so far and was wondering about a little help vs the MC of NidZilla and possibly DE .....

Lucius the Eternal 160

Daemon Prince wings/MOS/Lash 155
315

7 Chosen & AC
4 melta /MOS/power weapon
Rhino
264

7 Chosen & AC
4 plasma /MOS/power weapon
Rhino
284

8 Noise Marines & AC(Lucius joins these guys)
8 sonic blasters/doom siren/power weapon
Rhino w/ extra armor
315

9 Noise Marines & AC
8 sonic blasters/blastmaster/personal icon
300

9 Noise Marines & AC
9 sonic blasters/doom siren/p. weapon/p. icon
Rhino
330

10 Lesser Daemons 130

9 Raptors & AC
MOS/2 flamers/p. weapon
260

defiler w/extra CCW/ Reaper Autoncannon 150

2 Obliterators 150


2498 total!


Thanks for any help

You'll be eliminated at the semis with this list.

I am not really sure where to begin, it looks like a battleforce army (lots of everything instead of everything in lots) scaled up.

Yeah, seems to lack focus. And you have very little anti-tank firepower. 4 melta-guns + DP + 2 oblits doesn't really cut it.

I dunno how you can claim a list that has a DP, a 4 melta chosen squad, 2 Obliterators and the Defiler lacks anti-tank. He's got enough to handle anything except a full on high AV blitz. Noise Marines have krak grenades, right? I don't think he's going to suffer too hard from lack of anti-tank.

He's chosen to focus on anti-infantry weaponry. With the strength of the Ork dex I don't think that's anything that can be held against him too hard.

I'd definitely ditch the extra armor on the rhino to get 3 rhino's extra bolters. Extra Armor is too expensive, to my mind. Also, Lucius is a chump. Huron/Kharne are much tougher guys for roughly the same point value, or just a slaaneshi sorcerer with Lash if you want to keep the theme.

Was the sisters player all foot or something? Cause I just don't see that taking out a 13 rhino/immolator/exorcist list.

Drop lucius and add in another lash prince. That'll help with the mc's.

I'd also switch the second chosen squad to all melta and ditch the plasma.

A DP 4 melta chosen 2 obliters and a defiler might be able to pop 2 rhinos a turn, maybe. Although I find it highly unlikely.

At the very least give the rhinos combi-meltas to give you a little extra punch instead of the extra armor.

I dunno how you can claim a list that has a DP, a 4 melta chosen squad, 2 Obliterators and the Defiler lacks anti-tank. He's got enough to handle anything except a full on high AV blitz. Noise Marines have krak grenades, right? I don't think he's going to suffer too hard from lack of anti-tank.

3 Landraider lists would own this army. Which will be common in the semi's.

Well, here's what I'm taking to the SEMIS.....what do you guys think?

I think its a nice looking army which looks like it would be fun to play. The only modifications I'd suggest is ditching the extra armour, as 40Ke says. A lot of people might dismiss this army if they see it on a table opposite them which will work to your favour.

Good luck in the semis. Hope I'm not near you

40kenthusiast wrote:I dunno how you can claim a list that has a DP, a 4 melta chosen squad, 2 Obliterators and the Defiler lacks anti-tank. He's got enough to handle anything except a full on high AV blitz. Noise Marines have krak grenades, right? I don't think he's going to suffer too hard from lack of anti-tank.

He's chosen to focus on anti-infantry weaponry. With the strength of the Ork dex I don't think that's anything that can be held against him too hard.

I'd definitely ditch the extra armor on the rhino to get 3 rhino's extra bolters. Extra Armor is too expensive, to my mind. Also, Lucius is a chump. Huron/Kharne are much tougher guys for roughly the same point value, or just a slaaneshi sorcerer with Lash if you want to keep the theme.

Yet, my standard chaos force at 1750 has more firepower and definitely more anti-tank.

2 lash.
3xNM w/7 SB + 1 BMx2
3x3 oblits

How can I say the list lacks anti-tank? How can you say it can handle any tank army that exists?

2 lascannon shots--from ONE unit.
4 melta shots--from ONE unit.

A DP is anti-tank? You shoot DP's to death at 2500.

I just don't get it--is it because *I* said it's lacking anti-tank?

Seems clear to me it is.

I have 4 lascannons (4 units), 4 psycannons (2 units), 9 heavy bolters (3 units), and 8 meltaguns (4 units) in my DH army and I can't really stop mech armies that well.

Lots better AT than this list has, and yet I find it deficient.

This list is lacking anti-tank for 4th edition!

Please play more 5th edition games.

Stelek wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:I dunno how you can claim a list that has a DP, a 4 melta chosen squad, 2 Obliterators and the Defiler lacks anti-tank. He's got enough to handle anything except a full on high AV blitz. Noise Marines have krak grenades, right? I don't think he's going to suffer too hard from lack of anti-tank.

He's chosen to focus on anti-infantry weaponry. With the strength of the Ork dex I don't think that's anything that can be held against him too hard.

I'd definitely ditch the extra armor on the rhino to get 3 rhino's extra bolters. Extra Armor is too expensive, to my mind. Also, Lucius is a chump. Huron/Kharne are much tougher guys for roughly the same point value, or just a slaaneshi sorcerer with Lash if you want to keep the theme.

Yet, my standard chaos force at 1750 has more firepower and definitely more anti-tank.

2 lash.
3xNM w/7 SB + 1 BMx2
3x3 oblits

How can I say the list lacks anti-tank? How can you say it can handle any tank army that exists?

2 lascannon shots--from ONE unit.
4 melta shots--from ONE unit.

A DP is anti-tank? You shoot DP's to death at 2500.

I just don't get it--is it because *I* said it's lacking anti-tank?

Seems clear to me it is.

I have 4 lascannons (4 units), 4 psycannons (2 units), 9 heavy bolters (3 units), and 8 meltaguns (4 units) in my DH army and I can't really stop mech armies that well.

Lots better AT than this list has, and yet I find it deficient.

This list is lacking anti-tank for 4th edition!

Please play more 5th edition games.

Harsh as, but it's true.

You're at 2,500 pts and whilst you can deal with anti-infantry fairly solidly, the metagame has a total metric crap tonne of high armour tank armies floating around. Stelek's list if stelek is still taking the same one he took to the qualifiers has 4 standard LR's and 3 LR Crusaders, there's enough tanks there to table your anti tank firepower and allow him to just move on up and sit inside the LR's on the objectives to win.

2,500pts people with high amounts of armour will single out the armour busters outright, and this advice also goes for playing against 'Nidzilla lists. as anti-tank firepower deals with MC's just as efficiently. But lets all take a step back shall we and look at your list as a whole.

It is fairly manouvrable with 4 rhino's, some oblits, raptors, and a winged DP, and the few demons are a nice surprise to drop on someone, but not enough of them a 2,500pts. Your anti-tank firepower suffers from serious lack of range. I am assuming that people get to look at the lists before the game? If so, they go "Oh hey, chosen, rhino, 4 meltaguns - 1st unit to go, won't have to worry bout them oblits for at least a turn unless he deploys em straight up but those 4 melta's in a unit of just 7, no icon of resilience well, yummy". The same against a 'Nidzilla army, Gunfexes take the rhino's out or imobilise them and you're stuck trudging across the board to get into range whilst the rest of the army eats the unit alive. 1 antitank/antiMC unit gone, now to the DP and Oblits. Then we walk into the Noise Marines themselves, some MC's will fall but not enough to end you on contact.

So where do we go from here? Drp Lucius take another Sorcerer with lash, or another DP with Lash and wings? increase the amount of anti-tank/MC firepower would seem a logical choice. But what do the rest of the community, the massive hardcore powergamers have to say as far as adding stuff and better tooling this list out? So far all you've done in constructive feedback is bag it out and not actually come up with suggested army lists or suggested unit composutions or anything with a single points value mentioned to actually be of any help. I'd suggest something more, but I'm not as familiar with the army as I would like just yet.

Cheers all and just2fierce goodluck in the semi's,

Auretious Taak.

I'd drop Lucius to add a second lash prince - and honestly there's no need to make them flying. I swapped lash sorcerors for lash princes and did fine in the preliminary games. The focus of the princes is lash, so staying back and pushing/pulling enemy units is what they want to do.

Plus, while surely a daemon prince IS anti-tank, you really want to be able to handle tanks WITHOUT resorting to that - why did you buy them? Lash, right? If you're charging a tank, you didn't use lash that turn because you can't charge anything but what you lashed.

One unit with a blastmaster? And a champion? You realize you can get two 5-man units with a blastmaster each for the same points cost right? And they can sit in the back on objectives or whatever, or just be a nuisance to your opponent. Otherwise, that aspiring champion is useless - no power weapon, the unit is obviously planning on standing still, 5th edition has no target priority checks, and the squad is fearless. Why waste 15 points?

Drop the extra armour on the rhinos and take a combi-weapon each. You can add a combi-melta to make each one a potential tank killer that can't be ignored, or combi-flamers to make each one deadly against hordes. I had an opponent immobilize a rhino early in the game only to move some guardsmen near it two turns later. He'd forgotten about the combi-weapon, and it turned and toasted the entire unit in one go. 10 points to make them potentially lethal!

I don't mind the raptors much, they can stay. Mobility is nice.

I'd say make both chosen squads meltagun squads. And give THEM rhinos. Use them to outflank, and that makes a 26" zone of death from either short board edge where they could drive on, unload, and hose a tank. This also gives the enemy a lose/lose situation - there's not one obvious choice for them to kill "oh, that squad can kill my landraider, and that other one can't.". Also, the squad with plasmaguns has an AC with a powerweapon - any turn they wanted to charge, they couldn't fire their plasmaguns and vice versa. With meltas, you can.

And give the champion a meltabomb. Or two or three of them. That way if you move close and still can't get rid of a tank, you can charge it and still be effective.

While marines are all fitted with krak grenades, always keep in mind "what if it's a landraider?" Always hitting on rear armour isn't a saving grace against those. You need something that can really punch it.

both squads of chosen are 8 models.......7+AC=8

both have a power weapon each but I could drop that.

both have a rhino

the AC for the blastmaster squad has a personal icon in case I need to drop in the daemons near them hasn' happened yet but it was like insurance incase someone got behind me.

Plasma guns can still get the job done against LR rear armor.....especially within 12 inches.....I could also change the AC to have a P. Fist but that kinda goes against the whole I'm going first in CC idea........

I do like the comi-melta option for the rhins and will try to find some, anyone know where you can buy them?

Thanks,

Phillip

Plasma guns work against LR rear armor?

Man...I gotta find another guy to help.

just2fierce wrote:both squads of chosen are 8 models.......7+AC=8

Plasma guns can still get the job done against LR rear armor.....especially within 12 inches.....I could also change the AC to have a P. Fist but that kinda goes against the whole I'm going first in CC idea........

Plasma is strength 7 ap2 so tell me how will you get a pen or a glancing hit on av 14 with a 6 sided dice? What does being within twelve inches have to do with anything? Are you confusing it with a multimelta?
Stelek will never win most popular but he will get you a rock hard tourney list.

Every marine army comes with a special 6 sided die.

2-7.

as much as i hate to say it, im with stelek here, not even close to enough anti tank, even a single landraider would tear it up.
drop lucius and the chosen with plas, get a LR and more oblits to start with.

You do realize LR it short hand for two different tanks, and not just Land Raiders, right?

i would drop the whole list and start fresh you dont have enuff anti tank nor does this list look like it could handle any thing coming at it i really dont even know what this list could kill but it isnt much unless you have the dice gods on your side.

I must add my voice here to the dissenters of this list. this looks like a fluffy british slannesh legion list, not like a hard core 'ard boys list.

if you are determined to take a fluffy slannesh list to 'ard boys, perhaps something like this?

2500 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster - Unnamed

HQ: Chaos Sorceror (1#, 130 Pts)
1 Chaos Sorceror @ 130 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Force Weapon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Lash of Submission; Mark of Slaanesh

HQ: Chaos Sorceror (1#, 125 Pts)
1 Chaos Sorceror @ 125 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Force Weapon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Lash of Submission; Mark of Slaanesh

Troops: Noise Marines (9#, 320 Pts)
7 Noise Marines @ 320 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Blastmaster; Sonic Blaster (x6); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Mark of Slaanesh; Rhino
1 Noise Champion @ [75] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon; Doom Siren; Sonic Blaster; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Fearless; Mark of Slaanesh
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Troops: Noise Marines (9#, 320 Pts)
7 Noise Marines @ 320 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Blastmaster; Sonic Blaster (x6); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Mark of Slaanesh; Rhino
1 Noise Champion @ [75] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon; Doom Siren; Sonic Blaster; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Fearless; Mark of Slaanesh
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Troops: Noise Marines (9#, 320 Pts)
7 Noise Marines @ 320 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Blastmaster; Sonic Blaster (x6); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Mark of Slaanesh; Rhino
1 Noise Champion @ [75] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon; Doom Siren; Sonic Blaster; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Fearless; Mark of Slaanesh
1 Rhino @ [35] Pts
Twin Linked Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 115 Pts)
1 Dreadnought @ 115 Pts
Crazed; Dreadnought CCW; Twin Linked Bolter; Dreadnought CCW; Twin Linked Bolter; Extra Armor; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 115 Pts)
1 Dreadnought @ 115 Pts
Crazed; Dreadnought CCW; Twin Linked Bolter; Dreadnought CCW; Twin Linked Bolter; Extra Armor; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 115 Pts)
1 Dreadnought @ 115 Pts
Crazed; Dreadnought CCW; Twin Linked Bolter; Dreadnought CCW; Twin Linked Bolter; Extra Armor; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Heavy Support: Defiler (1#, 150 Pts)
1 Defiler @ 150 Pts
Fleet; Battle Cannon; Dreadnought CCW (x2); Close Combat Arm; Twin Linked Heavy Flamer; Daemonic Possession; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Heavy Support: Defiler (1#, 150 Pts)
1 Defiler @ 150 Pts
Fleet; Battle Cannon; Dreadnought CCW (x2); Close Combat Arm; Twin Linked Heavy Flamer; Daemonic Possession; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Heavy Support: Defiler (1#, 150 Pts)
1 Defiler @ 150 Pts
Fleet; Battle Cannon; Dreadnought CCW (x2); Close Combat Arm; Twin Linked Heavy Flamer; Daemonic Possession; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Fast Attack: Raptors (8#, 245 Pts)
7 Raptors @ 245 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Meltagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Icon of Slaanesh; Mark of Slaanesh
1 Aspiring Champion @ [65] Pts
Lightning Claws (pair); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Mark of Slaanesh

Fast Attack: Raptors (8#, 245 Pts)
7 Raptors @ 245 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Meltagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Icon of Slaanesh
1 Aspiring Champion @ [65] Pts
Lightning Claws (pair); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs


the lash sorcerers keep the CC units off the noise marines and out in the open for either battle cannon charges, or walker charges (with 33 str 10 power weapon attacks on the charge!).

there are only 4 meltas in two units, but there are also 3 battle cannons, AND every unit can damage an av 14 vehicles with a meltabomb, plus the manuverability to do so.

you could take out the meltabombs and put 2 heavy flamers on each of the defilers, if you wanted. that might do well, but I'm a little paranoid vs AV 14 right now.

that list is alot better it really is.

That list is neat - lots of dreads, just hope they behave themselves!

Problem with that list is tyranid MC list - they'll do a number on your dreadnoughts and defilers in hth and you don't have anything to deal with a 2+ save.

Oh, and blastmaster + doomsiren champion is kind of.... doesn't know what it wants to do.


Anyway, to the OP: You don't need an aspiring champion to carry a personal icon in the cult squads, any model can carry it. Save yourself 15 points if that's all you wanted him for.

There are better things to spend points on than Dreadnoughts, though the list is an improvement. Armies with lots of 2+ saves will give you trouble, but every army has its counter.

I was actually responding to Danny Internets, didn't realize Stelek had posted. In any case, I wouldn't base a response to an argument on it's originator.

As to why I don't think he lacks anti-tank, he's rolling a Mech list himself. In general, his list is composed of Marines in Rhinos. If they move around in AC formation, slanting, smoking and obscuring each other, enemy long fire will be insufficient.

His primary threat isn't enemy tanks. A twin-linked lascannon hits 8/9 of the time, cover takes that down to 4/9, penning him takes it down again to 8/27, and then getting the 5 or 6 requires another 1 in 3, so basically he's looking at 9 twin-linked lascannons to pop a single rhino. Even if they get popped the guys inside are still fearless.

The things he's got to worry about are melta-weapons (whether fired from enemy rhinos, enemy jump packers, deep strikers, or whatever) and chargers. He's got the perfect weapons to step out and deal with them.

I'm not saying his list has obliterating power, I don't expect it to blow through the Semi's, but the prevailing seems to be that if you aren't running the mathematical ideal your list is composed of losium, and that's not true in a dice game.

This is a decent list. In the 'Ardboyz you have to max on anti-tank or anti-horde (to win you probably need both), he's gone anti-horde. Given the strength of the Ork dex, that's a pretty decent gamble. If he runs into 3 Land Raiders he might still be able to squirm a draw out of it and outperform the other guy in the next round.

And, seriously, trying to "improve" his list by posting a list which maxes out on Chaos Dreadnaughts and reduces his already sketchy 4 troop squads to 3 strikes me as ridiculous. If you want a fierce CSM list it's got Obliterators, lashers and your choice of cultists in rhinos.

40kenthusiast wrote:His primary threat isn't enemy tanks. A twin-linked lascannon hits 8/9 of the time, cover takes that down to 4/9, penning him takes it down again to 8/27, and then getting the 5 or 6 requires another 1 in 3, so basically he's looking at 9 twin-linked lascannons to pop a single rhino. Even if they get popped the guys inside are still fearless.

Mathhammer ...and you left out the 3+ effect, so in Mathhammer land it'd only take what 12 lascannons to even come close to stopping a Rhino...

Reality? Every lascannon is a threat on Rhino chassis. Twin-linking just makes it worse.

You also don't include that 66% of penetrating hits do what you want against Rhinos.

2, stunned.
4, immobilized.
5, 6, dead.

Go ahead and take extra armor, increase the cost of your vehicle even further.

Only glancing hits result in the 1 in 3 (33%) result.

4, stunned.
6, immobilized.

I don't know if there's anything wrong with the list posted as an alternative, bringing alot of mech threats is what makes it dangerous. I posted a similar list a while back, the whole point is to flood the battlefield with armored targets. It's difficult to deal with them all.

As to why I don't think he lacks anti-tank, he's rolling a Mech list himself. In general, his list is composed of Marines in Rhinos. If they move around in AC formation, slanting, smoking and obscuring each other, enemy long fire will be insufficient.

Insufficient... unless the enemy fire is mobile, which it will be if said enemy is running lots of vehicles.

His primary threat isn't enemy tanks.

So he ignores the tanks and then gets killed by what's inside the tanks? Seems like a poor strategy. At 2500 points you need MORE anti-tank than usual, not less. And in 5th edition you need MORE anti-tank because mechanized armies are way more powerful (and therefore more common) than before.

Lucius the Eternal or Lord:Mos
Sorcerer Mk of Slaanesh, Lash, Warptime or Winds of Chaos, Familiar

Elite
2 x 6 Chosen (2w Melta, 3 w Flamer) MkofS in Rhino w Combi-Melta

Troop
3 x 8 Noise Marines ( CCW&Pistol, AC w DoomSiren and PW)

Heavy
3 x LandRaiders

Fast
6 Raptors MoS, 2 Meltas, AC w 2 Ltng Claws
6 Raptors MoS, 2 Meltas, AC w 2 Ltng Claws


This is close to 2500 but you would have to tweek to your liking and models.

The chosen are there to die but hopefully take out a tank or MC on their outflank. I loaded them with flamers and meltas so you can
play mini-tank and either fire 2 meltas out of the FP or 2 flamers. Add the combi-melta on the rhino and you can potentially drop two tanks on the turn you enter between them.

Lucius and Sorc each pick a squad and all 3 mount in the Landraiders.
I took to psychics since if you are in the LR's you will not be Lashing all the time. Warptime or Winds of Chaos would be the second choice.

Landraiders... more AT and you can protect your troops if the plaguebearers start dropping. These can be MC assassins or whatever you need.

2 units of raptors. I configured as more tank killers but you could easily configure with flamers for anti-infantry.

I lost the blastmasters and sonic blasters as you are in the raiders in this config. You have two flamer templates though between lucious and the AC. The second could have two if you go winds of chaos with the sorc. The 3rd lives with 1. Between all these templates, the ability to dismount and charge, 2 power weapons and initiative 5 you should still be dangerous to orc hoards.

Spellbound wrote:That list is neat - lots of dreads, just hope they behave themselves!

Problem with that list is tyranid MC list - they'll do a number on your dreadnoughts and defilers in hth and you don't have anything to deal with a 2+ save.

Oh, and blastmaster + doomsiren champion is kind of.... doesn't know what it wants to do.


Anyway, to the OP: You don't need an aspiring champion to carry a personal icon in the cult squads, any model can carry it. Save yourself 15 points if that's all you wanted him for.

that is where the lash comes in. move the CC mc's back and charge the others (like dakka fexes) with your dreads. your dreads all strike first (unless it's a tyrant) and you have enough str 10 power attacks to poof 1-2 a turn. (hit on 3-4, wound on 2+, 33 attacks with all the walkers combined)

the dreads only die on a 5+, otherwise they keep fighting,. MC's really don't kill dreads like they used to.

you still have 3 battle cannons as well.

lash enemies that have a 2+ save forward, so the Walkers can crush them.

Aduro wrote:You do realize LR it short hand for two different tanks, and not just Land Raiders, right?

That may be true, but this is a Chaos army list post. Last time I checked Chaos doesn't have Leman Russ options.