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I know it's a little after the fact, but I wanted to know what you all thought of the 'Ard Boyz list I'm building toward for next year.

Comments and constructive criticisms are welcomed. Thanks in advance.

Black Templars 2500 Points Army List

Emperor's Champion w/ Accept Any Challenge

Crusader Squad (10/4) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Smoke Launchers

Crusader Squad (10/4) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Smoke Launchers

Crusader Squad (10/4) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Smoke Launchers

Attack Bike Squadron (3) w/ 3 Multi-Meltas

Attack Bike Squadron (3) w/ 3 Multi-Meltas

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Smoke Launchers, Extra Armor

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Smoke Launchers, Extra Armor

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Smoke Launchers, Extra Armor

* * * * *

2498 Points.

I'm debating the worth of the Neophytes. If I drop them, I can give the three Crusaders the "Blessed Hull" upgrade to make Eldar cry, and still have points left over for things like Dozer Blades and Searchlights for the vehicles.

I was also thinking about perhaps fielding a Marshal with a pair of Lightning Claws and an Iron Halo, or perhaps a Reclusiarch with a Bolt Pistol and HOA. I felt that more bodies was better at this point, though with the LRCs doing so much of the leg work I think I might actually be better off with the Blessed Hull upgrade.

What are your thoughts? How can I make this nastier?

CK

Total-2684p. So, 184p over points. Without having Blessed Hull, which, in Ard Boyz, is near suicide. Otherwise, good list. Drop an attack bike squad? I think that would make it correct points.

Otherwise, pretty good list. See how it is once it is brought under points.

EDIT: As for neophytes, I like them. They give you some room to take plasma shots, and that is helpful.

I'd take Speeders over Bikes, they can move 12" and shoot, also 18" max movement. No turbo boosting awesome, but better I think. I'd drop it down to 3x squads of 1x Speeder with Melta(Flamer or missiles if you want them, I'd really go fro the Flamers) each, to make room for Blessed hull and making the list 2500p.

Dropping the neophytes sounds like a good idea. It will lower your points and blessed hull can never hurt. This list looks nasty.

The neophytes are just blah... Go for the blessed hull for sure.

I dont know about the attack bikes though... interesting idea. With the new rules for PrefEnemy... CC termies seem so tasty.

My mistake was the extra Attack Bike Squad. I think I got a little Cut+Paste happy.

CK

If you go 7/7 you save ... 6x3x3 points? 50 something.

It looks like a good list to me.

That, and those Power Fists only have one attack now, do they not? Two on the charge. Seems not that great to me.

7/7, Power Weapons, Blessed Hull and 6 Attack Bikes comes to 4 points over.

It is an armoured list, I personally would rather go with Dreadnoughts or Landspeeders. The other thing, maybe you want some Flamers instead of Meltaguns? Or stick with the Meltaguns. Meltaguns are good against MEQ and BT are good against Hordes anyway.

As for the extra HQ I think you are more worried about horde armies than MEQ armies.

just my 2c.

Tacobake wrote:If you go 7/7 you save ... 6x3x3 points? 50 something.

It looks like a good list to me.

That, and those Power Fists only have one attack now, do they not? Two on the charge. Seems not that great to me.

7/7, Power Weapons, Blessed Hull and 6 Attack Bikes comes to 4 points over.

It is an armoured list, I personally would rather go with Dreadnoughts or Landspeeders. The other thing, maybe you want some Flamers instead of Meltaguns? Or stick with the Meltaguns. Meltaguns are good against MEQ and BT are good against Hordes anyway.

As for the extra HQ I think you are more worried about horde armies than MEQ armies.

just my 2c.

With the fact you get rerolls to hit and wound on 2+'s makes a Power Fist just as likely to cause a wound against a T4 model as a power weapon, and much more likely against anything with a higher T. It's worth it, believe me. It becomes 19p over, if it's Melta Guns and power fists.

The Melta Guns are more of a "emergency" thing against vehicles. I like Flamers or Plasma better, they are cheaper, and in the case of the flamer, be used to kill a couple guys before you charge, or in the plasma, kill a couple guys if you cannot charge. Flamer is the best, I feel.

Call me stupid, why do you get a re-roll? The vow?

Tacobake wrote:Call me stupid, why do you get a re-roll? The vow?

Yea, Accept=Preferred Enemy, in 5th, Preferred Enemy=Rerolls to hit.

HotSoup wrote:

Tacobake wrote:Call me stupid, why do you get a re-roll? The vow?

Yea, Accept=Preferred Enemy, in 5th, Preferred Enemy=Rerolls to hit.

Ah alright. You pay enough points for it. Definately go with the Fist, then. Pesky Tyranid scum.

I don't think you need both Power of the Machine Spirit and Extra Armour. 15 points, awesome.

Indeed.

"Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds" gives the entire army the Preferred Enemy USR for 50 points.

Power Fists are the no-brainer CC-special weapon for my Crusader Squads. Always have been always will be. Nothing bugs me more than having a huge unit of Fearless Initiates and Neophytes stuck in CC with a T6+ creature while my models wale away to no avail. The 'Fist at least will put a wound out once per turn or so.

The Meltagun is the same way. I've won games because of those backup special weapons -- your opponent becomes hesitant to tank shock you off of an objective if he realizes you have a Meltagun and Power Fist in the target squad. All in all, it makes for a nice little area denial weapon, especially when you have multiple squads clustered in an area -- most things with a 2+ save or an AV will be likely to steer clear.

However, in this case, I might have to bite the bullet and ditch the Meltaguns altogether. Losing 30 points would give me a little more wiggle room for points allocation.

CK

Extra Armor allows me to move in a direction that is not a straight line, which is what Power of the Machine Spirit does. This matters more in 5th now that the firing arc is 45 degrees wide instead of the front 90 degree arc.

CK

ah ic. Makes sense.

gl with your army, dude.

I'd like to see the new list, after you make it correct points.

Much obliged, HotSoup.

Here's what I've hammered out:

Emperor's Champion w/ Accept Any Challenge

Crusader Squad (10/0) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Crusader Squad (10/0) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Crusader Squad (10/0) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Attack Bike Squadron (3) w/ 3 Multi-Meltas

Attack Bike Squadron (3) w/ 3 Multi-Meltas

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, Dozer Blades, HK Missile

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, Dozer Blades, HK Missile

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, Dozer Blades, HK Missile

* * * * *

2498 Points.

Pretty solid, IMHO. Comments and criticisms welcome.

CK

You know how it is, comments in orange.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Much obliged, HotSoup.

Here's what I've hammered out:

Emperor's Champion w/ Accept Any Challenge

Crusader Squad (10/0) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

I'd at least take 15 man squads, you can't do much without the IC without the 15 man total.

Crusader Squad (10/0) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Crusader Squad (10/0) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Attack Bike Squadron (3) w/ 3 Multi-Meltas

Attack Bike Squadron (3) w/ 3 Multi-Meltas

Three squads of 2 is better then two squads of 3.

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, Dozer Blades, HK Missile

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, Dozer Blades, HK Missile

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, Dozer Blades, HK Missile

Hunter Killer missile's are a point sink. Since this is 5th, a lucky glance can't kill anything anyway, so why waste 10p on something that will probably stun if it does anything at all. That's 3 neophytes!

* * * * *

2498 Points.

Pretty solid, IMHO. Comments and criticisms welcome.

CK

I believe this is a strong list. My only bit of advice is to make sure you assault the same thing with all three squads to ensure so that you can start sweeping up a flank. Unless of course you are fighting guard, Necrons, or Tau, then it does not really matter.

extrenm(54) wrote:I believe this is a strong list. My only bit of advice is to make sure you assault the same thing with all three squads to ensure so that you can start sweeping up a flank. Unless of course you are fighting guard, Necrons, or Tau, then it does not really matter.

Or, attack three squads at once, to ensure that he has three less squads to shoot you with when you are out of combat.

What I meant by that comment, was basically make sure that you are going to win the assault and not lose too many guys. This list only has 30 scoring models, which is enough, but you shouldn't throw the crusaders into a risky fight unless you have to.

@HotSoup:
The 10-man squads are going to be hard pressed to tack on 5 Neophytes. Seeing as how those units are not supposed to be brawler squads anyway, I'd just as soon keep them as 10-man units. I imagine there will be games that they might not even leave their transport.

Three of two has one very distinct disadvantage over two of three -- the addition of a Kill Point to the list. If all it takes is a little shuffling around in terms of organization, then I'm going to be proactive in avoiding unnecessarily aiding my opponent by giving him another KP to take.

T4(5) W2 Sv3+ may not seem like much, but when it is the difference between a win and a loss in a KP Mission, it becomes more important than it's points value.

Besides, with 3 BS4 shots in each unit, I can more equally distribute/concentrate firepower.

The HK's were in there because there was little I could do for 30 points in terms of beefing out the remainder of the army. I figured that my Vindicators would still be threatening if I kept them armed with something with a little more range. They are in no way factored in as part of my dedicated anti-tank. That's what the 9 Multi-Meltas are for.

Here is a variant of the list I made previously. It emphasizes infantry a little more heavily, at the expense of a little anti-tank. The strengths and weaknesses are slightly different, but it generally has the same feel as the previous list.

* * * * *

Emperor's Champion w/ Accept Any Challenge

Crusader Squad (10/4) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Crusader Squad (10/5) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Crusader Squad (10/5) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Attack Bike Squadron (2) w/ 2 Multi-Meltas

Attack Bike Squadron (2) w/ 2 Multi-Meltas

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, Dozer Blades

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, Dozer Blades, HK Missile

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, Dozer Blades, HK Missile

* * * * *

2498 Points. Hunter Killers are filling points. I might tack on a couple of Searchlights for fun.

CK

I like that one better, to be honest. I will probably playtest both personally, if you don't mind.

By all means, go for it.

I still need to purchase the Crusaders -- I'm waiting for the plastic kit.

CK

Crusaders just got cheaper with that new kit.

I think you definately want some Neophytes. 43 models? Yikes. 10/4 is a good number.

You could always take your Attack Bikes 3 and 2. Do you really need Dozer Blades on the Vindicators? Is that for tank shock if you lose the cannon?

Here is what I would call the minimum list.

Emperor's Champion w/ Accept Any Challenge

Crusader Squad (10/4) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Crusader Squad (10/4) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Crusader Squad (10/4) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Attack Bike Squadron (2) w/ 2 Multi-Meltas

Attack Bike Squadron (2) w/ 2 Multi-Meltas

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers

// 2443

57 points left. A Multi-melta bike is 65 points. You could lose two Extra Armours and take one, or you can add the two Neophytes and the Dozer Blades etc.

You could also lose one Neophyte (10 points). Or even take a Land Speeder.

What I am trying to say is that you have good options for spending the last of your points, you do not have to take the HK missiles etc. I am trying to live vicariously through your awesome Black Templar list .

Orange text, ect. I'll post my own take on the list later on.

Tacobake wrote:I think you definately want some Neophytes. 43 models? Yikes. 10/4 is a good number.

You could always take your Attack Bikes 3 and 2. Do you really need Dozer Blades on the Vindicators? Is that for tank shock if you lose the cannon?

It's so you can move through terrain without losing a vehicle.

Here is what I would call the minimum list.

Emperor's Champion w/ Accept Any Challenge

Crusader Squad (10/4) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Crusader Squad (10/4) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Crusader Squad (10/4) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull, Smoke Launchers

Attack Bike Squadron (2) w/ 2 Multi-Meltas

Attack Bike Squadron (2) w/ 2 Multi-Meltas

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers

// 2443

57 points left. A Multi-melta bike is 65 points. You could lose two Extra Armours and take one, or you can add the two Neophytes and the Dozer Blades etc.

Yea, dozer blades, add some Neo's, and maybe storm bolter some things up?

You could also lose one Neophyte (10 points). Or even take a Land Speeder.

What I am trying to say is that you have good options for spending the last of your points, you do not have to take the HK missiles etc. I am trying to live vicariously through your awesome Black Templar list .

I might tack on Storm Bolters onto the Crusaders in place of the HKs.

Having an extra couple of defensive weapon shots wouldn't hurt, especially when the vehicle is shooting:

4 TL Assault Cannon Shots, 6@24" (or 12@12") TL Bolter Shots and 2 Storm Bolter shots per turn at infantry. Pumping out 18 mostly twin-linked shots per turn from an AV 14 vehicle is never a bad thing against infantry.

CK

I like the Storm Bolters more than the HKs. At least you know they will be shooting.

Yup, storm bolters all the way. Even though 5+ saves are so last IG codex, there's something to be said for a maniacal space marine gunner, cackling wildly as he tears up the battle field with a massive 75 caliber gun.

He doesn't care if he kills nothing, he's having fun.