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For those of you how don't know already, I am going back and forth trying to decided on starting a new tournament army, either Black Templars or Eldar. I've got the Eldar list hammered out to how I like, and I am strongly leaning towards it, but I just can't seam to shake my interest in the Black Templar's either. The plan was to wait and see what the new Space Marine 'dex would bring as well, but now I've had some time to seriously read through it. I was afraid it'd be the new Emperor's Cheesiest and leave the BTs in the dust, but really it doesn't and in fact the BT still have some strengths over standard codex lists.

That said, I only seam able to come up with rather mediocre lists. Maybe it's the challenge factor of making a list for them that I'd actually want to buy and play that has me slightly obsessing over this. I'm really wanting to focus on using the Land Raider Crusader, and all my lists have at their core 2 Crusader Squads in LRCs. I need some help here polishing off a list and shoehorning it into 1750 points. What follows is more than 1750 points, but it's there to give an outline of what I am currently going for.

HQs:
Emperor's Champion + vow

Master of Sanctity or Reclusiarch + wargear.
3 wounds are better than 2, points permitting.

Elites:
Terminator Assault Squad in a LRC
I don't like running minimum size squads, so ideally this would be a 7 man squad (leaving room for the Chaplin), armed with 5 sets of LCs and 2 thunder hammer combos with Furious Charge.

Troops:
2x Crusader Squads of 10 Initiates with either a power fist/ flamer or a power weapon/ meltagun combo in the mix, mounted in a LRC.
That's 3 LRC charging across the board. Bad thing is I only have 2 Troop choices for claiming objectives, so I want these squads full of Initiates so they'll stick around a while.

Heavy Support:
Lesson learned that if you've got most everything piled in high AV transports, then anything without a high AV is going to get lit up 1st turn! So nothing here with a frontal armor less than 13.

2x Vindicators with Machine Spirit.
Drive froward. Boom. Drive Forward. Boom.

Predator Annihilator w/ lascannon sponsons and PoTM
I know I will get flak on this one. I think this army needs some ranged AT. If I wanted to just sit in one place all game and fire lascannon shots I'd get some Forge World turrets or something. Tanks have tracks so they can move around! I've got a bunch of giant LOS blockers lumbering around, so odds are I will need to reposition, and having the PoTM means I can still pop off two lascannon shots (one BS 4 one BS 5 tl) while repositioning.

Aside from the lack of troops, it looks like a really good Fast army. And I completely agree with the use of the predator. You'll need to be careful about LOS, though I guess you already know that.

Personally, I'd go with the powerfist and flamer, It gives your guys ok odds against tanks, guys in cover, and MC's while your crusaders can kill all of the light infantry.

here is the problem...

1750 Pts - Black Templars Roster - Unnamed

: Emperor's Champion (1#, 140 Pts)
1 Emperor's Champion @ 140 Pts
Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol; The Black Sword; Crusader Seals; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds
1 The Black Sword @ [0] Pts
1 Armor of Faith @ [0] Pts
1 Crusader Seals @ [0] Pts

HQ: Master of Sanctity (1#, 135 Pts)
1 Master of Sanctity @ 135 Pts
Crozius Arcanum; Crusader Seals; Rosarius; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds
1 Crusader Seals @ [0] Pts
1 Rosarius @ [0] Pts
1 Terminator Armor @ [25] Pts

Elite: Sword Brethren Assault Terminators (8#, 580 Pts)
7 Sword Brethren Assault Terminators @ 580 Pts
Lightning Claws (pair) (x5); Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield (x2); Furious Charge; Crusader Seals; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds
1 Land Raider Crusader @ [265] Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit

Troops: Crusader Squad (11#, 446 Pts)
10 Crusader Squad @ 446 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Close Combat Weapon (x8); Flamer; Power Fist; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds
1 Land Raider Crusader @ [265] Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit

Troops: Crusader Squad (11#, 446 Pts)
10 Crusader Squad @ 446 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Close Combat Weapon (x8); Flamer; Power Fist; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds
1 Land Raider Crusader @ [265] Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Vindicator @ 155 Pts
Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Power of the Machine Spirit

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Vindicator @ 155 Pts
Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Power of the Machine Spirit

Heavy Support: Predator Annihilator (1#, 175 Pts)
1 Predator Annihilator @ 175 Pts
Twin Linked Lascannon; Lascannon (x2); Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Power of the Machine Spirit

Total Roster Cost: 2232

you are 482 points over with your wish list. if you ditch the heavy support you will just squeak by.

you are 482 points over with your wish list.

Yeah I know it's way over. That's why I didn't even bother to post points values and why I was looking for some help on what to slim it down by. I'd hate to drop all of the heavy choices though.

Swordbreaker wrote:

you are 482 points over with your wish list.

Yeah I know it's way over. That's why I didn't even bother to post points values and why I was looking for some help on what to slim it down by. I'd hate to drop all of the heavy choices though.

Perhaps this?

1750 Pts - Black Templars Roster - Unnamed

: Emperor's Champion (1#, 140 Pts)
1 Emperor's Champion @ 140 Pts
Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol; The Black Sword; Crusader Seals; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds
1 The Black Sword @ [0] Pts
1 Armor of Faith @ [0] Pts
1 Crusader Seals @ [0] Pts

Elite: Sword Brethren Assault Terminators (6#, 490 Pts)
5 Sword Brethren Assault Terminators @ 490 Pts
Lightning Claws (pair) (x3); Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield (x2); Furious Charge; Crusader Seals; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds
1 Land Raider Crusader @ [265] Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit

Troops: Crusader Squad (10#, 430 Pts)
9 Crusader Squad @ 430 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x8); Close Combat Weapon (x7); Flamer; Power Fist; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds
1 Land Raider Crusader @ [265] Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit

Troops: Crusader Squad (10#, 430 Pts)
9 Crusader Squad @ 430 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x8); Close Combat Weapon (x7); Flamer; Power Fist; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds
1 Land Raider Crusader @ [265] Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 130 Pts)
1 Vindicator @ 130 Pts
Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Extra Armor

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 130 Pts)
1 Vindicator @ 130 Pts
Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Extra Armor

Total Roster Cost: 1750

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I know I had to drop the POMS for the vinds, but hey, at least you still can move them if you get glanced...
if you want to keep the POMS you will have to nerf the squads in the LRC to the point where they really can't do anything but sit there.

or you could do something like this:

1750 Pts - Black Templars Roster - Unnamed

: Emperor's Champion (1#, 100 Pts)
1 Emperor's Champion @ 100 Pts
Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol; The Black Sword; Crusader Seals; Uphold The Honour Of The Emperor
1 The Black Sword @ [0] Pts
1 Armor of Faith @ [0] Pts
1 Crusader Seals @ [0] Pts

Troops: Crusader Squad (6#, 345 Pts)
5 Crusader Squad @ 345 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x5); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Uphold The Honour Of The Emperor
1 Land Raider Crusader @ [265] Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit

Troops: Crusader Squad (6#, 345 Pts)
5 Crusader Squad @ 345 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x5); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Uphold The Honour Of The Emperor
1 Land Raider Crusader @ [265] Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit

Troops: Crusader Squad (6#, 345 Pts)
5 Crusader Squad @ 345 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x5); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Uphold The Honour Of The Emperor
1 Land Raider Crusader @ [265] Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Vindicator @ 155 Pts
Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter; Power of the Machine Spirit

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Vindicator @ 155 Pts
Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter; Power of the Machine Spirit

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Vindicator @ 155 Pts
Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter; Power of the Machine Spirit

Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squadron (3#, 150 Pts)
3 Attack Bike Squadron @ 150 Pts
Frag Grenades; Twin Linked Bolter (x3); Heavy Bolter (x3); Uphold The Honour Of The Emperor

Total Roster Cost: 1750

no assaulting, but 3 vinidis, three LRC and and attack bike squad puts out a lot of firepower for 1750

I like the 1st list you came up with better. I'd have an easier time playing with lists but I've only got AB2 and I've heard only bad things about AB3.

Both lists raise a question I had with Black Templars. I know the EC doesn't take, up a slot, but does he count as the minimum one HQ choice? I'm guess he must but I've yet to see that confirmed by anything official, it could be I've simply missed it.

My original plan had either bikes or an assault squad. That turned out to be a bad idea because everything the enemy had that was useless against LRCs got thrown at the lone squad. I'd go so far as drop the Crusader Squads down to 8 men, but I am hesitant to do that. Dropping them to nine was.. acceptable.

I considered running 3 Crusader Squads in LRCs instead of 2 + termis, but I was concerned it just wouldn't hit as hard, tough it might survive better. I don't really count on termi's making their 5+ and 5 is a small squad so they are nearly dependent on the FC bonus to increase their survivability.

Swordbreaker wrote:I like the 1st list you came up with better. I'd have an easier time playing with lists but I've only got AB2 and I've heard only bad things about AB3.

Sadly, none of them true.

AB3 isn't perfect, but it's the best investment you can make if you want to make competitive lists.

Nothing else comes close.

See Orange Text in quote boxes for my comments.

Swordbreaker wrote:For those of you how don't know already, I am going back and forth trying to decided on starting a new tournament army, either Black Templars or Eldar. I've got the Eldar list hammered out to how I like, and I am strongly leaning towards it, but I just can't seam to shake my interest in the Black Templar's either. The plan was to wait and see what the new Space Marine 'dex would bring as well, but now I've had some time to seriously read through it. I was afraid it'd be the new Emperor's Cheesiest and leave the BTs in the dust, but really it doesn't and in fact the BT still have some strengths over standard codex lists.

Indeed it does, indeed it does.

That said, I only seam able to come up with rather mediocre lists. Maybe it's the challenge factor of making a list for them that I'd actually want to buy and play that has me slightly obsessing over this. I'm really wanting to focus on using the Land Raider Crusader, and all my lists have at their core 2 Crusader Squads in LRCs. I need some help here polishing off a list and shoehorning it into 1750 points. What follows is more than 1750 points, but it's there to give an outline of what I am currently going for.

Good, as this is the best list type for BT I have experienced.

HQs:
Emperor's Champion + vow

Master of Sanctity or Reclusiarch + wargear.
3 wounds are better than 2, points permitting.

And 4 attacks is better then 3 wounds, if you ever have to make that choice.

Elites:
Terminator Assault Squad in a LRC
I don't like running minimum size squads, so ideally this would be a 7 man squad (leaving room for the Chaplin), armed with 5 sets of LCs and 2 thunder hammer combos with Furious Charge.

Way to expensive, really, for a squad. Insanely strong, but expensive as all hell. I dunno if it's exactly worth it, you know? Smoke on LRC, and Blessed Hull.

Troops:
2x Crusader Squads of 10 Initiates with either a power fist/ flamer or a power weapon/ meltagun combo in the mix, mounted in a LRC.
That's 3 LRC charging across the board. Bad thing is I only have 2 Troop choices for claiming objectives, so I want these squads full of Initiates so they'll stick around a while.

They will stick around longer with some neophytes, I like 7:7, but 10:4 would definitely help. Plasma kill's everything. Flamer/P-fist for both, by the way. Power weapon does nothing really. Also, smoke on the LRC's. Blessed Hull too.

Heavy Support:
Lesson learned that if you've got most everything piled in high AV transports, then anything without a high AV is going to get lit up 1st turn! So nothing here with a frontal armor less than 13.

2x Vindicators with Machine Spirit.
Drive froward. Boom. Drive Forward. Boom.

Give them EA for better movement, and smoke.

Predator Annihilator w/ lascannon sponsons and PoTM
I know I will get flak on this one. I think this army needs some ranged AT. If I wanted to just sit in one place all game and fire lascannon shots I'd get some Forge World turrets or something. Tanks have tracks so they can move around! I've got a bunch of giant LOS blockers lumbering around, so odds are I will need to reposition, and having the PoTM means I can still pop off two lascannon shots (one BS 4 one BS 5 tl) while repositioning.

Pred's are not that good. Dread's are probably better in this list. Smaller, can move 6" and shoot everything, and it is easier to terrain hug with them. Better choice, also doesn't take precious HS slots.

Swordbreaker wrote:I like the 1st list you came up with better. I'd have an easier time playing with lists but I've only got AB2 and I've heard only bad things about AB3.

When did simple codexes go out of style?

Both lists raise a question I had with Black Templars. I know the EC doesn't take, up a slot, but does he count as the minimum one HQ choice? I'm guess he must but I've yet to see that confirmed by anything official, it could be I've simply missed it.

My original plan had either bikes or an assault squad. That turned out to be a bad idea because everything the enemy had that was useless against LRCs got thrown at the lone squad. I'd go so far as drop the Crusader Squads down to 8 men, but I am hesitant to do that. Dropping them to nine was.. acceptable.

Dropping them below 14 is silly, just silly.

I considered running 3 Crusader Squads in LRCs instead of 2 + termis, but I was concerned it just wouldn't hit as hard, tough it might survive better. I don't really count on termi's making their 5+ and 5 is a small squad so they are nearly dependent on the FC bonus to increase their survivability.

It hit's perfectly fine. My list is generally 2x 14 man Squads+IC, in LRC's, with Vindis bringing the Pie Plate support. It's insanely effective. Hard to pop anything, ect. And in combat they destroy most squads, and you stay away from the ~4 that can beat them easily.

Hotsoup, I've seen your lists. In general I like them, but they are your lists not mine. Mine would differ slightly. I agree with some comments I've seen Stelek make about taking Neophytes, and I agree, leave them at home. Yeah they are great and fluffy and very much a Black Templar signature thing and let my older metal scout models live on but... I think they can also sink your squads. I don't think you'd need them to boltser your squad size for assault either, because a 3 LRC list is a shooty army.

I am usually not a fan of Predators, but I do have one already that does not get much use for my Ultra's so it's one more model I'd already have towards completing this army. It brings something to this army that the list lacks.

I do not like Dreadnoughts. I love the model! It's great! Looks awesome in any Marine army, but I feel like if I am going to be competitive I need to leave it at home. If I were to happen to bring a Dreadnought I think I'd run it as the Lascannon & ML launcher combo.

I am a fan of the Vindicator. It's great fun. I originally misread the 5E rules and thought we couldn't move and fire ordinance anymore. Once I got that cleared up I immediately got it off the shelf again.

Right now my thoughts now are turning towards a list with 3 Crusader Squads in LRCs, backed up by two Vindicators.

Swordbreaker wrote:Hotsoup, I've seen your lists. In general I like them, but they are []iyour lists[/i] not mine. Mine would differ slightly. I agree with some comments I've seen Stelek make about taking Neophytes, and I agree, leave them at home. Yeah they are great and fluffy and very much a Black Templar signature thing and let my older metal scout models live on but... I think they can also sink your squads. I don't think you'd need them to boltser your squad size for assault either, because a 3 LRC list is a shooty army.

Then drop assault terminators for more shooty? If it's shooty, then go 5 man, or 5:5 man squads. They aren't going to do anything but take objectives in the LR anyway. If it's shooty, only the EC squad should be made for combat, otherwise, whats the point? Besides, shooty LR misuses the best thing a LRC has, a 20" charge range. The guns only exist for support once you take full advantage of the 20" charge.

I am usually not a fan of Predators, but I do have one already that does not get much use for my Ultra's so it's one more model I'd already have towards completing this army. It brings something to this army that the list lacks.

I do not like Dreadnoughts. I love the model! It's great! Looks awesome in any Marine army, but I feel like if I am going to be competitive I need to leave it at home. If I were to happen to bring a Dreadnought I think I'd run it as the Lascannon & ML launcher combo.

Of course, thats why it's awesome as far as AT goes. It can move 6", get in a good firing position, and rain hell.

I am a fan of the Vindicator. It's great fun. I originally misread the 5E rules and thought we couldn't move and fire ordinance anymore. Once I got that cleared up I immediately got it off the shelf again.

Right now my thoughts now are turning towards a list with 3 Crusader Squads in LRCs, backed up by two Vindicators.