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this has probably been covered somewhere but i cannot find it. i have a necron opponent who seems to be using rules differently to suit him when he needs it.
one big problem is with we'll be back.
this is the situation:

necron lord with a res orb is killed in the shooting phase.
NEXT
squad of 10 necron warriors next to the lord is killed by weapons that disallow WBB rolls (lets say lascannons).

he says that the Res is still on the field and is used even though the necron lord is "dead".
he says laid down instead of dead, alive or damaged etc.

another situation has occuredrecently.

i killed all but 2 of a 10 necron warrior squad in CC.

they failed their morale check, the 2 models attempt to fall back, and i rolled higher with initiative catching them in a sweeping advance.
he says that i only kill the 2 models.
he says that the rest of the sqaud is not part of the squad anymore so dont get destroyed. he actually called them "dead" this time in the arguement therefore could not be "killed" again.

is there any concise, full paper o the WBB rules including order and sequence details.

i cannot find details in his codex covering when dead models and live models do things.
when can a "dead" model use its wargear??? (neron lord with res orb)

sorry about the large post, hope someone can help me

Part 1: I would say that since those models are 'laid down' and test wbb at the end of the phase, it is possible for him to roll wbb on the lord (if that is even posible) - if he passes that, the orb is on the table and he could roll wbb on the warriors. I am not sure the lord gets wbb without a special piece of wargear. The orb won't work if the lord is dead (ie: failed his wbb roll, if he does get one)

Part 2: Only if the models laid down make their wbb and are outside of 6" of the original unit will they 'create' their own. There isn't anything in the Necron codex that mentions necrons ignoring sweeping advances and therefore it is only logical to play by the ruleset you do have (ie: BRB)

I am probably wrong on both, but that is how I would play it.

There is a Necron FAQ on the GW Web site. That helps us find answers.

Case #1: Necrons down awaiting their WBB roll do not count for determining if another model can make its WBB roll. So the 10 warriors are not allowed to make the WBB roll.

Case #2: Only the 2 are removed by the sweeping advance. The eight who are "damaged" can roll for WBB if they meet the other criteria for such rolls. When they get back up, they join the nearest warrior unit (wherever it is) and do not form a new independent unit.

1. Check the FAQ: the Res Orb range is measured when the casualties are taken. If the Warriors are killed after the Res Orb Lord goes down, then they can't attempt WBB. If the Warriors were killed first, then they may attempt WBB at the start of their next turn, regardless of whether the Lord gets back up or not.

Note that they still need other Necrons of the same "type" within 6" in order to get back up. If that squad of 10 died and there were no other Warriors nearby (and no Tomb Spyders), then it dies no matter what.

2. Your opponent is correct as far as I can tell. See utan's answer.

For the first part I disagree with the last two posters. Codex Necrons says "any model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side".

I would apply this as meaning the model is not yet dead, he is remaining on the tabletop and as such continues to offer the benefits of a resurrection orb.

For the second question I'm not sure, codex necrons says that downed necrons "cannot be attacked in anyway - they are just seen as more battlefield debris", however the sweeping advance rules say "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

So there I think it comes down to whether the necrons laying down still belong to the unit, since the FAQ says that if a unit falls back when it has necrons laid down the downed necrons move with the unit, I figure they are still part of the unit and as such are wiped out by a sweeping advance.

I for one look forward to them getting FNP instead of this

actually the FAQ says you determine if they models are in range of an orb at the time they are hit with the anti-WBB weapon, not at the beginning of the necron turn. If the lord was killed before the warriors were then the warriors would not get to WBB. because the lord is just debris at the time.

as for the warriors knocked down before the 2 were destroyed during sweeping advance, IF they are within the WBB range for like models at the beginning of their turn then they can WBB. remember the codex even says that they count as debris. they are not part of a squad or anything at that time. as for the falling back units "carrying their dead" with fallen necrons moving with a unit, it for determining how many WBB rolls you get to make, IMHO that still doesn't really make them as part of the unit, just a way to keep track of how many WBB rolls you get to make. and that rule in the FAQ seems more like an extension of when you measure for res orb range. i could be wrong though...

airmang wrote:actually the FAQ says you determine if they models are in range of an orb at the time they are hit with the anti-WBB weapon, not at the beginning of the necron turn. If the lord was killed before the warriors were then the warriors would not get to WBB. because the lord is just debris at the time.

It says they are SEEN AS more battlefield debris, but this is a fluff phrase, and implies no real rules application, please show some actual RAW to support this. Even if it was actually dictating rules, it's just dictating how the enemy views the situation, regardless the necron lord is not yet dead and remains on the table, although sideways, so why is his wargear no longer effective?

as for the warriors knocked down before the 2 were destroyed during sweeping advance, IF they are within the WBB range for like models at the beginning of their turn then they can WBB. remember the codex even says that they count as debris. they are not part of a squad or anything at that time. as for the falling back units "carrying their dead" with fallen necrons moving with a unit, it for determining how many WBB rolls you get to make, IMHO that still doesn't really make them as part of the unit, just a way to keep track of how many WBB rolls you get to make. and that rule in the FAQ seems more like an extension of when you measure for res orb range. i could be wrong though...

Personally I still feel that "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage" is clear enough to create a situation where a codex doesn't automatically override core rules, unless WBB said "if the unit that the damaged necrons belonged to is wiped out by a sweeping advance leave the damaged necrons on the board" then there is a rule which clearly says to remove all models in the unit.

Simply check the FAQ and you'll see that damaged Necrons count for nothing:
* Damaged necron models do not count toward determining the required 6" for another model to make the WBB roll.
* Damaged necrons count as casualties at the end of the game.
A damaged necron is for all intents and purposes destroyed until such time as it succeeds in a WBB roll.

Damaged Necrons are not part of any unit. When they succeed in a WBB roll, they join the closest unit of the same type (even if it is not the original unit).

The wargear does not function while the lord is dead. You cannot use a 'dead' necron to measure range, thus you can't be within 6" of a lord while it is 'dead'.


WBB affects a *model*, SA removes a *unit*. The downed warriors *are* still part of the parent unit. Or else they would not move with them when they fall back, and they could not teleport through the monolith with them.

OK, we have twp people saying that sweeping advance DOES NOT kill models awaiting WBB rolls and three people saying that sweepin advance DOES kill models awaiying WBB rolls.

anyone else care to throw their 2 cents worth in.

an answer with RAW references to back it up would be good

anyone???

The sweeping advance rule ends with "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can save a unit at this stage..." So, the Necron unit being swept doesn't get it's WBB rolls.

The FAQ says that the casualties which the unit took to make it fall back are supposed to move with the unit. The FAQ stops short of saying that the fallen Necrons are still part of the same unit, although now that their original unit has been destroyed, they're going to have a hard time managing one of the two options for a getting WBB roll (not counting the ressurection orb for Instant Death wounds): a) a unit of the same type within 6" or b) a tomb spider within 12" and a standing Necron model of the same type as the fallen model.

I think that's as clear as it gets...

WBB is a rule full of questions. The FAQ practically dedicates a whole page to trying to cover them and still falls short. WBB is expected to go the away in favor of Feel No Pain when the 5e necron codex comes out.

There is no perfect RAW application and even RAI is up for discussion. A sweeping advance is when the victors chase down the fleeing enemy and stomp 'em flat. I don't see them having the time to back up and trounce the damaged 'crons.

Come to a mutually agreeable solution or take the old d6 option.

utan wrote:WBB is a rule full of questions. The FAQ practically dedicates a whole page to trying to cover them and still falls short. WBB is expected to go the away in favor of Feel No Pain when the 5e necron codex comes out.

There is no perfect RAW application and even RAI is up for discussion. A sweeping advance is when the victors chase down the fleeing enemy and stomp 'em flat. I don't see them having the time to back up and trounce the damaged 'crons.

Come to a mutually agreeable solution or take the old d6 option.

Amen sir. There simply is no RAW answer here because the FAQ is a horrible mash-up of the third edition Q&A edited to a fourth edition bullet-point errata style FAQ and then edited again into a 5th edition mish-mash FAQ.

I doubt anyone in the studio even has an opinion on how these situations are supposed to be played. Hell, 3 of the 5 authors for the codex don't even work in Games Development anymore (Andy Chambers, Pete Haines and Graham McNeil).


By the codex alone, damaged Necrons shouldn't really have any impact on the game and they should no longer be associated with any unit.

However, per the FAQ in some cases downed models are clearly associated with their original unit (moving along with them when they fall back and when the unit goes through a monolith portal). The problem is, the FAQ isn't clear on exactly how and when downed models are still associated with their unit and when they're not.


My suggestions for house rules:

1) Ignore the Necron FAQ when it comes to them telling you to move your downed models along with the unit. That just makes everything way more complicated.

2) Treat downed models as 'associated' (a term I'm making up) with their parent unit until the point where they stand back up and join another unit. That means they get to benefit from the Monolith's portal re-roll (if their parent unit teleports through it) but also means they would be 'wiped out' if their parent unit was run-down from a sweeping advance. That seems like the only 'fair' way to play IMHO.


But like I said, these are just house rules because the actual rules are a horrid confusing mess.

**Editted for stupidity**

thanks for the information. we will come o some agreement with the aid of your interpretations.