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okay, you're going to have to bear with me while I subject you to my terrible MS Paint art, but it was the simplest way to explain this scenario I figured. In the following picture the blue unit are firing at the red unit who are concealed by the gray wall which is assumed to completely block LOS past it, obviously the blue lines are the LOS limits around the corner of the wall for the model they are drawn to.



Now, cover saves are deemed to apply to the whole unit if "half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover" and we are also told "models that are completely out of sight are considered to be in cover for this purpose."

But I'm not sure exactly how that applies if you have a situation like this.

i. Because only 4 are firing do you only consider those 4 for checking line of sight or is the entire unit still relevant. (I will assume from here that the entire unit is relevant but it may not be)

1. because every target model can be seen by atleast 1 firing model do you rule that none are "completely out of sight" and therefore they are not entitled to a cover save at all?

2. Do you rule that because over half of the firing unit can draw LOS to less than half of the target unit they have a majority in cover and get the save? (obviously whether you ignore the units that can't shoot due to totally blocked line of sight or not has a big impact here)

3. Do you tally it up, getting a potential of 25 "spots" where LOS can be drawn(5 models spotting 5 models, 5x5), and an actual 13 of these having line of sight meaning the majority is in favor of seeing them and therefore they do not get a cover save

4. Do you treat them as 2 seperate groups, the 2 firing models who can see the entire target unit and deny the cover save, then the other 2 who can see 1 and 2 models respectively who grant the cover save for their shots. (this seems far fetched but worth asking)

I'm not trying to start something over this concept, but I'm personally not totally clear on what constitutes the majority being in cover when it's about total LOS blocking, I just want to be clear on how this sort of situation should operate.

Check the illustration on pg 23 of the rulebook.

Everyone from the firing squad counts - not just those that can see enemy models (obscured or not)

Doesn't matter whether one model can clearly see an enemy model, but whether they can clearly see the majority of enemy models, and then whether a majority of models in your unit can see the majority enemy.

In your example, you have 1 model that can't see anyone, 2 that see a minority, and 2 that see a majority. More cannot see than can, so the unit being fired at gets a cover save.

Something this close to being either one way or the other, I'd likely just give my opponent a cover save at -1 to speed up the process and get on w/ the game.

Thanks Stjohn, not sure how I missed those diagrams when checking how this is solved, so clearly it seems the answer is method 2.

The majority of firing models have to be able to see the majority of target models for them to be out of cover.

stjohn70 wrote:Everyone from the firing squad counts - not just those that can see enemy models (obscured or not)

I'm not so sure about that. The rules talk about firing models so only the models that acually fire counts. The rocky outcrop on the image on page 23 is probably not tall enough to completely obscure the orks from any of the marines.

Also remember that you can opt not to fire with certain models in a firing unit so if 5 models of your 10 man unit can see more than half of the target unit and the other 5 can see only half or less you may choose to not fire with one of those models and thus eliminating the cover save (now 5 of 9 models, ie a majority, have a clear view to a majority of the target unit).

I agree with Webbe.

A model in the firing unit that cannot see any models in the target unit does not fire according to page 16.

To determine cover you check LOS from all firing models, so any models that cannot see at least one enemy model in the target unit (or that you chose not to fire with) would not count for this process.

That brings up the interesting option of only some units with blocked LOS refrain from shooting so as to deny the enemy cover saving throws.

I could see this being especially important with weapons like Plasma Guns vs. Power Armor or Mega Armor.

You'd shoot all your Special Weapons and all your clear LOS basic weapon shots. You'd shoot any blocked LOS basic weapons you could without making the number of blocked LOS models meet the number of clear LOS models.

It'll matter significantly when you have a unit like Stormtroopers shooting at Space Marines. Your Plasma Guns need to hit. Your up-gunned Flash Lights can be sacrificed to deny the enemy a 4+ or 5+ cover save from that plasma death. The same logic would probably apply in units with Blast weapons - don't shoot that extra S3 or S4 round if it is going to suddenly give the other guy 4+ saves against your 4-hit blast attack.

You still have to decide who is firing and who isn't firing before checking range, though - so you risk skipping shots to try and enhance Plasma shots that might overheat and blast attacks that might miss the target completely.

This is new?

What did I miss this time?

Sounds reasonable, but since I don't have the rulebook with me I would be more comfortable if either Webbe or Yakface cite the relevant text and page #s.

Rulebook, page 16 wrote:
WHICH MODELS CAN FIRE?
All models in the firing unit that have line of sight to at
least one model in the target unit can fire.
A player may choose not to fire with certain models if
he prefers (as some models may have one-shot
weapons, for example). This must be declared before
checking range, as all of the models in the unit fire at
the same time.

Rulebook, page 22 wrote:
Of course being in cover or not often depends on the
position of the firer as well as the target. If only one
model is shooting, it will be easy to tell how many
models in the target unit are in cover from the firer’s
point of view. If multiple models are shooting, you will
need to work out how many models are in cover from
the point of view of the majority of the firing models
that are in range. If the majority of the firers have a
clear shot to the majority of the models in the target
unit, the unit receives no save. Otherwise it does. This
may sound complex, but you will find that in reality in
most cases it is quite obvious if a unit is in cover or not.

Thanks Webbe