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What weapon should be given to a tactical sergeant armed with a power fist?

You get no extra attack for having a pistol anymore so a bolt pistol seems pointless.

A bolt gun would allow for rapid firing with the rest of the squad earlier in the game.

Plasma pistols tend to cost too much in conjunction with PF...


What would you choose?

Definately a Bolter. That is why it is called a mad mother Spase Marine.

Or a combi-weapon if you are looking for a bit of cheese.

With a Powerfist - I would add either combi-melta or a combi-flamer. I prefer the combi-flamer

Hadn't considered the combi weapon as viable on any of my marines for, well, ever.

*Heads back to look at viability of combi weapons*

problem with Power Fist + Combi Weapon you are looking at an expensive model, if you lose it due to wound allocation.

Thing is you only have to shoot the Combi once .

Power Fist, Combi-Flamer + Flamer and Missile Launcher. Good old fasioned Spase Marinez.

Tacobake wrote:problem with Power Fist + Combi Weapon you are looking at an expensive model, if you lose it due to wound allocation.

Thing is you only have to shoot the Combi once .

Power Fist, Combi-Flamer + Flamer and Missile Launcher. Good old fasioned Spase Marinez.

+ Vulkan. Though I'll probably take a melta instead of the missile launcher.

For tacticals, I prefer cheap. The sergeant is there for leadership.

I hate sticking +50 on what is already a 30pt single wound figure.

Different story when we start talking assault marines or bike sergeants.

I do like the idea of a combi-weapon though. Puts a little extra punch in that unit. I have even toyed around with 5-man tacs and a razorback for an idea. Seeing you get no special in the codex at 5, it gives you that one-shot AT gun or flamer.

Let tacticals and devastators be follow up and support units and trick out the other types for HTH monsters.

CSM with their 20-man on foot hoards can think about it since they are going to be able to hide that 60 point guy for quite a while but go to a 5-man battle squad and you will be dreading every wound allocation.

I have to agree that they can probably live without the Powerfist. Better to buy +1 Sternguard, for example.

Still, good to have one or two to cut your losses when mr big nasty says hello.

IF I take a PF (by no means guaranteed, with the loss of effectiveness), I'll definitely have a bolter, stormbolter, or combi-something for the second. No point in keeping the firepower gimped if I can't buff his combat abilities.

Combi-weapons are the beez-neez now.

I still prefer a PF over a power weapon due to the double strength and the ability to damage vehicles or monstrous creatures.

It all depends on Battlefield Role for the unit.

The Power Fist is pretty good at wrecking Vehicles and crushing Space Marines, Traitor Marines, Terminators, Mega Nobs, and all that rot. It has to survive long enough to swing, though, which means it needs a lot of models protecting it if you plan on using it against hard targets with a WS value during the Assault.

I shy away from putting a Power Fist in any power-armor squad with under 10 marines in it.

So that leaves me with two battlefield roles for the Power Fist Sergeant - Assault Marine Leader and Shooting Squad Guardian.

The Assault Marine leader has 9 bodies between him and making a saving throw - as well as a superior means of transport to insure he get the initial assault on a suitable target. For his off-hand weapon I've recommend the Combi-Flamer (high impact) or a plain-old Bolt Pistol (low cost). You can't fire a Rapid Fire weapon and Assault anyway, so make an Assault shot that costs the enemy or at least doesn't cost you anything.

The Shooting Squad Guardian role is the guy who sits in a 10-man squad of Devistators or Tactical Marines to punish Monstrous Creatures, Walkers, and Power Armor Assault Teams from crowding your fire base. The down side is that there are some armies out there that simply do not send any of these units to the yard. What's worse, you only usually get 1 hit in with that fist anyway. Frankly, you are already over-paying for this guy's power fist, so I'd leave him with a Bolter unless I knew a swarm was heading my way, at which point I'd hand him a Combi-Flamer.

Honestly, I'm not sold on the idea of the Combi-Melta. It looks to be a nice Anti-Vehicle scheme on the surface, but consider that Space Marines all come with Krak Grenades already and all Assaults against non-Walking Vehicles hit on rear armor.

That's S6 vs. Armor 10 against anything but:
- Land Raiders
- Monoliths
- Walkers
- Drop Pods (AV 12 - Immobile so you auto-hit)
- Leman Russ Demolisher (AV 11)

Meanwhile the Melta is NERF'd against the Monolith anyway and you aren't supposed to be killing the thing in the first place. The other down side is that Walkers can Assault you, so getting that shot off isn't always a sure thing.

Honestly, in a lot of roles I favor the Sergeant w/ Power Weapon, Pistol, and Krak Grenades. He's a much less expense, much more well-rounded unit that will frequently reclaim his points cost in an Assault thanks to striking 3 times (4 on the charge) at initiative 4. He doesn't have to survive much past Initiative 4 to do his job, so I'm less leery about tossing him into the breach.

- Marty Lund

I prefer powerfists, because one dreadnought will ruin your day. Hitting it in the FRONT, on a 6, needing a 6 to then glance it, and being unable to destroy it with that until all its weapons are gone and it's immobilized, means that you're just in it for a long slow death. A powerfist, while sure only getting in a hit or so per round, gives you the chance to bring it down. See also: Wraithlord.

Yea, so far we have found that grenades are very "meh" against vehicles. It seems wierd, but the reason seems to be that you are always hitting on a 6, with one attack per man. Now, if you could surprise a tank sitting still, ok, but most of the time by the time you get close enough the tank has driven a bit to get away, or was an immolator and drove 12" straight at you, dropped out an easy bake squad and melted your face. Or the thing is a walker, and requires a 6+ all the time. So you have to hit, then get a 4+ to glance/pen.
Alternately, fisting allows two attacks, with the same to hit, but a much better chance of a pen on a tank. And your regular marines can always just punch the thing and get lucky. Against a walker, you have a vastly superior chance of hitting, and a better chance of glance/pen again.

To me, that means the best thing about the fist is that it deals effectively with the dread who is coming after you, as opposed to the tank which you only worry about hitting in melee if it lets you.

Wehrkind wrote:Yea, so far we have found that grenades are very "meh" against vehicles. It seems wierd, but the reason seems to be that you are always hitting on a 6, with one attack per man. Now, if you could surprise a tank sitting still, ok, but most of the time by the time you get close enough the tank has driven a bit to get away, or was an immolator and drove 12" straight at you, dropped out an easy bake squad and melted your face. Or the thing is a walker, and requires a 6+ all the time. So you have to hit, then get a 4+ to glance/pen.

Well, vehicles only require a 4+ to hit them unless they've moved at "cruising" speed and thus forfeited any and all ability to shoot in the previous turn.

I'm not nearly as impressed by the .5 Power Fist hits per Assault in favor of 3x that many hits with 9x Krak Grenades, even if the Fist penetrates on a 3+ and the Krak Grenades need a 5+. 1/2 * 2/3 = 1/3 penetrations whereas 3/2 * 1/3 = 1/2 penetrations. Additionally you get 3x as many glancing hit rolls too. I'm not sure that extra fraction of a damage roll from the Power Fist justifies 25 points.

Now against a Walker - yeah, you want a Power Fist over relying on a lucky grenade., or just shoot the silly thing before it engages you in Assault - preferably in the rear armor. The Power Fist gives you a fighting chance, but the Dreadnaught is removing 1.25 Marines on the charge and just under 1 a round after that - and always before you get a chance to swing the Power Fist.

Then consider what actual threat a Space Marine Sergeant w/ Power Fist actually poses to a Dreadnaught that charges his unit. He gets is 1 hit on average, that fails to injure armor 50% of the time - so .5 damage rolls per round (or .333 if it is an Ironclad). Any Dreadnaught that's seeking Close Combat worth its salt has Extra Armor, so all Shaken and Stunned results are ignored. That means that 2/3 of all Glancing hits do nothing, and 1/3 of all penetrating hits do nothing. "Weapon Destroyed" results will be initially impeded by the Storm Bolter, then a non Close Combat Weapon, so those results are effectively moot.

You are really fishing for an Immbilized or Destroyed result. You'll generate an average of 0.028 (glancing immobilized) + 0.167 (penetrating immobilized, destroyed, explodes) = 0.195 relevant damaging hits per combat round. It is going to take 6 rounds worth of Dreadnaught attacks (and 6 dead marines) before your Power Fist - on average - makes a real dent in the thing. I guess we'd better hope this "hit on a 6 / glance on a 6" Krak Grenades come through.

And an Ironclad Dreadnaught is just a death sentence. The Krak Grenades do nothing. The Power Fist statistically shouldn't be able to bring the thing down before it has all but wiped out a 10-man squad of marines.

You really need to shoot Assault Dreadnaughts. Power Fist Sergeants don't fix the problem.

Alternately, fisting allows two attacks, with the same to hit, but a much better chance of a pen on a tank. And your regular marines can always just punch the thing and get lucky. Against a walker, you have a vastly superior chance of hitting, and a better chance of glance/pen again.

Neither Fists nor Grenades in regular Marine squads are cut out to deal with Close Combat Dreadnaughts. Statistically it is a losing proposition. You'd rather lose combat and use Chapter Tactics to fall back, regroup, and then shoot the stupid thing with a decent weapon from that unit or another unit on your team.

To me, that means the best thing about the fist is that it deals effectively with the dread who is coming after you, as opposed to the tank which you only worry about hitting in melee if it lets you.

Actually, I think the Mathhammer shows that since the Sergeant lost his bonus Power Fist attack from his Bolt Pistol in 5th Edition he's not a very sound solution to the Dreadnaught threat.

It does make me reconsider my original opinion about the Combi-Melta. Sure, it only hits 2/3 of the time and it is a one-shot effect. On the other hand, does you opponent really want to risk an average AP roll of 15 with a +1 damage rating against his Dreadnaught? Considering the odds favor you 2-to-1 on the deal I don't think he'd be wise to bit on that.

Wraithlords, however, are a whole different kettle of fish.

- Marty Lund

10 pt Stormbolters changed everything...

if your sergent is going to assualt then the choice of 'fist' or 'PW' all depends what your facing. the maths has been explained better than i ever could!
but as Arctik_Firangi said, storm bolter for 10pts..? thats got to be the other weapon choice for me.
combi weapons work if you have a specific role in mind and know who your facing. flamers for hordes, melta for tanks etc. but as an all round assualting ranged weapon the storm wins....i think.
phill

Why on earth would you pay 10 points for Storm Bolter? Tactical squads generally have the following uses:

10 strong on foot - usually holding an objective and popping shots off at vehicles with heavy weapons at long range--no need for Storm Bolter
10 strong mounted in Rhino - get in rapid fire range for maximum small arms and special weapons damage--no need for Storm Bolter
5 strong mounted in Razorback - same as above
10 strong mounted in Drop Pod - same as above

Taking a combi-melta for the same points or combi-flamer for 5 less seems far more effective.

My Sergeants have power fists and combi-weapons depending on the special weapon in the squad.

Wehrkind wrote:
...Alternately, fisting allows two attacks, but a much better chance of a penenetration...

I would almost always go for the fist in a 10 man squad.

But in a 5 man squad it's suicide. St 4, one wound and power armor is really not enough protection for a model that expensive.
Once you have 9 other bodies to shield him then we'll talk.

The only way i would split into combat squads anyway is just to put the special weapon in one and the heavy weapon in the other.
The sgt would probably get a combi weapon of some kind and run around with the special weapon.
They would be doomed in CC either way.

mlund wrote: Any Dreadnaught that's seeking Close Combat worth its salt has Extra Armor, so all Shaken and Stunned results are ignored. That means that 2/3 of all Glancing hits do nothing, and 1/3 of all penetrating hits do nothing. "Weapon Destroyed" results will be initially impeded by the Storm Bolter, then a non Close Combat Weapon, so those results are effectively moot.

Ex. Armor counts Stunned as Shaken, and Weapon Destroyed results are decided by the attacker, so if he wants to destroy your DCCW he could take it away first.

I go with the bolter, mostly. Maybe a combi-weapon, it depends on what else I have in my list.

I have a powerfist and stormbolter marine in a Command squad, because stormbolters are 3pts each.

However I would not take a stormbolter on a sergeant for 10pts.

As sergeants ae now mandatory I dont have to look at the 15pts cost, it isd paid for like it or not. before the price of the vet sgt forbade me from taking too many powerfists as the real cost was 30pts.

Now it is 25pts but the sgt is paid for already, hence I take more of them. The powersword is 5pts more expensive than before but is also a no brainer. It is either or, the only real mistake is to give your sergeant his chainsword. The investment forcludes the option of taking no upgrades.

However the real reason for that is not the sergeant, but the squad. With ten man squads being effectively mandatory you will either have ten marines as a fighting force, which deserves a tooled up sergeant, or more likely two five man combat squads with a heavy weapon section and an assault section. Which again forces your sergeant into a combat role.

The only way out of this that makes sense is a 'minimum troops' squad of five marines, this also has a mandatory sergeant and no special weapon, so again for the 90pts you pay you gain nothing by not upgrading your sergeant. Besides if you wanted a 'minimum troops' squad you should really be after sniper scouts.

So now you have your sword or fist, what to do with it.

For a sword the answer is easy, you need a pistol. Plasma pistols can be worthwhile if you have a meltagun in the combat squad, you get two termie killing shots. With any other squad loadout you will be better off with a bolt pistol and a saving of points.
After all a powersword works best with bolt pistol and flamer for a cheap full tactical squad with only 15pts paid over the minimum, and makes for a good anti-horde squad.

Assuming you go for a powerfist you can take a bolter or a bolt pistol. The answer of which to go for is dependent again on the special weapon and your squads role in the army. You could take a plasmagun special with four boltguns and stand at range shooting until you are close enough for a fist countercharge. However if you do this you are better off giving your plasmagunner to the heavy weapon squad most likely a lascannon for a bit of traditonal lasplas.
With any other weapon you want to close, if you want to close take a pistol. Sure you get no extra attack, but you still get a shot off while charging in. Plasma pistols are way out, the last thing you want to do is misfire and kill your fist sergeant just before you charge the squad.

Ctd....

Combi weapons are likewise expensive, plasma has the same problems as a plasma pistol, you could lose your fist.

Melta and flamer are safer and more valuable. A one shot marine killer is good, but a one shot tank killer is better, this will be good to echo the other weapon the squad has i.e. one shot double melta or double flamer.

The extra 10pts could be well spent, after all meltas and flamers only rarely get more than two shots off a game anyway due to the delay of getting in range. Less if your squad is a line squad or counterassult, more if you are podding.

The last option to look at is melta bomb. If you have a fist you dont need a bomb, if you have a sword you should upgrade to fist instead of taking the bomb.

My verdict:

Powersword and bolt pistol in flamer squad.
Powerfist and bolt pistol in any combat squad.
Powerfist and combi-melta in meltagun squad.

Secondary value:

Powersword and plasma pistol in meltagun squad
Powerfist and combi-flamer in flamer squad.

N1NJ4 wrote:Ex. Armor counts Stunned as Shaken, and Weapon Destroyed results are decided by the attacker, so if he wants to destroy your DCCW he could take it away first.

You're correct about the Weapon Destroyed result. I misremembered that. It gives the Power Fist Sergeant a little more hope of getting lucky early enough in the game against a non-Ironclad Dreadnought.

I'm not sure, however, what relevant point you are trying to make about Shaken Results (and consequently Stunned Results, thanks to Extra Armor), though:

"Shaken damage results do not affect the way a walker fights in close combat."