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I used the Harbinger's feat "Godhead" last game and the question came up as to whether the Commodore Cannon is, actually, a model or not. It has an armour value, it has hit boxes. It doesn't necessarily have an LOS [in fact it seems it could point backwards and if the crew can see a target behind it, still fire that way, as if its position was relatively arbitrary], so that may be the biggest argument against it. It doesn't say living models, just says models.

By that same token, can the Commodore Cannon move if Epic Stryker casts that spell that gives everyone in his control area a free 3" move? The Commodore's card says it can only MOVE when it's the crew's activation and crew members decide to move it, and it has no movement value at all. So can it move when E. Stryker casts his spell?

Yep. I can Slipstream my own (Everblight) artillery piece, for example.

It has a base and has a SPD value, even if the SPD value is 0.

I direct you to the Privateer Press forums, where the real gurus lie. We here are the GW experts as far as rules are concerned.

http://www.privateerpressforums.com/

They probably have it errated.

Spellbound wrote:I used the Harbinger's feat "Godhead" last game and the question came up as to whether the Commodore Cannon is, actually, a model or not. It has an armour value, it has hit boxes. It doesn't necessarily have an LOS [in fact it seems it could point backwards and if the crew can see a target behind it, still fire that way, as if its position was relatively arbitrary], so that may be the biggest argument against it. It doesn't say living models, just says models.

If I recall correctly, the Commodore doesn't have LOS to anything; you use the LOS of the crewman that fires it. If that's right, then the cannon itself cannot see the Harbinger and would not be affected by Godhead.

By that same token, can the Commodore Cannon move if Epic Stryker casts that spell that gives everyone in his control area a free 3" move? The Commodore's card says it can only MOVE when it's the crew's activation and crew members decide to move it, and it has no movement value at all. So can it move when E. Stryker casts his spell?

That Epic Stryker's feat, Rolling Thunder, which I believe only affects friendly Cygnaran models. Even if it did affect the Commodore, it wouldn't be able to move because it can only move during its activation. Rolling Thunder takes place after all friendly models have activated.

Then again, the Commodore can only be fielded with Shae, and Shae can only be used by the Talion Charter merc contract. Unless it's multiple players per side, the Commodore will never be in the same army as Epic Stryker.

Tacobake wrote:Yep. I can Slipstream my own (Everblight) artillery piece, for example.

It has a base and has a SPD value, even if the SPD value is 0.

That's different. Slipstream "places" a model, which is different from "moving" a model. Slipstream would work on the Commodore if the Legion could use it.

Warmachine and Hordes differentiate between Move and Place effects. Place basically means 'pick it up and drop it wherever you want, as long as it fits, and ignore free strikes or anything else that triggers when a model moves.' Move is, iirc, a model's normal movement in its activation only.

PP rules are very specific for a reason, unlike GW where 'whether there's a difference between place and move' would spawn a 20 page thread here.

oomiestompa wrote:
That Epic Stryker's feat, Rolling Thunder, which I believe only affects friendly Cygnaran models. Even if it did affect the Commodore, it wouldn't be able to move because it can only move during its activation. Rolling Thunder takes place after all friendly models have activated.

Then again, the Commodore can only be fielded with Shae, and Shae can only be used by the Talion Charter merc contract. Unless it's multiple players per side, the Commodore will never be in the same army as Epic Stryker.

I'm an idiot, I played two games, one against pirates [and he used Shae] and one against Stryker. I was wondering that as I typed, because I thought to myself "wait, he didn't use stryker's feat....so how..."

Basically it's like dietrich said, the ability or spell or effect or whatever will state "move" or "place." Moving doesn't necessarily have to be during a model's activation, it can be at other times.
To broaden his definition, "moving" would be like you measure the distance and slide the model across the table, as if it were physically "walking" or whatever to its destination. "Placing" is what he said, pick up the model from its current location & put it somewhere new within the guidelines of the spell/ability/etc.

"Models" for the sake of clarity is anything that's on a base. I think with regard to the Harbinger's feat that the Commodore would not be affected, since it doesn't have LOS, per se, and it doesn't "activate" or "move" on its own, but rather is activated at the same time as the Crewmen in base-to-base contact. It could be affected, though, because although it's not a "living" or "warrior" model, it is still a model that can be attacked. EDIT: The Commodore & the Crewman firing it both need LOS, which I would read as meaning that the Commodore does have a front/rear arc distinction, hence LOS. Also, it works on 'jacks so why not?

It's crappy wording like this that makes it frustrating as hell to figure out a lot of the rules in Warmachine, I think.

I stand corrected.

no offense, sorry.

in theory, you actually could slipstream a Scather Crew. The problem would be that you could only move the catapult itself with one casting of Slipstream, so you would have to be careful about where the Crewmen are, so that when you go to activate the Scather they are still in base-to-base with the catapult model itself to move it again or fire/aim it.

A model in warmachine is typically everything that is not terrain. Some models can move, others cannot eg. Menoth Wracks . When a model cannot be moved, or requires some special situation to move the card will state it. In the case of the Commodore it has a series of special rules that can effect how the various model location changing effects apply.

In Warmachine/Hordes there are several named effects that can result in a model to changing its table location.

Movement, in WM/Hordes rules this word specifically refers to the Movement Phase of the models activation. A model must have a movement phase during its activation regardless of whether it actually moves on the table. Forfeiting movement phase only means you give up using that part of the activation to allow the model to move to another location on the table, not that movement phase did not occur. It is also useful to note that the movement phase completely encompasses the period of time during which the model moves on the table. So when something says "ends movement" it is referring to the end of this phase, not the end of the model moving on the table. This distinction is only important in one situation I can think of and that is Cavalry Impact attacks which are part of the movement phase but may occur before the model stops moving. In this case effects that trigger on movement (ie movement phase) would not trigger until after the Cavalry model completes its movement phase, even though the Cavalry model may stop during its movement phase to make impact or ride by attacks.

Move. This can refer to a model moving from one location of the table to another location during its activation, but moving also can refer to a models movement outside of that models activation (ie Movement Phase). For example counter charge, being thrown, shadow shift, slammed, intercept etc....

Placement, this is an effect that takes a model from one board location and places it in another board location. Placements differ most notably in that it avoids effects that may occur while a model moves from one table location to another eg. Free Strikes. In placement since a model moves from one location to another with no interim moves these effects usually do not occur. The one exception where placement and moving are the same is that when a model is placed it is considered to be entering an area of the table. Therefore effects that trigger on entering trigger on placement. eg. Murder of Crows and Blight Bringer damage.

Slams, a slam is a type of movement with a series of rules that determine how that movement can occur, how far, what happens when other models of various sizes or obstacles are involved during the model moving through its determined path.

Throw, a throw is type of movement that has a serios of rules that determine how that movement can occur, how far, and in what direction and what happens when models of different sizes are along the throw models path

2 Handed Throw, like a throw but with different rules for how the 2H throw occurs and what direction the thrown model moves.

Push, a push is a type of movement with specific rules for how it occurs.

In the case of Slams, Push, Throws and 2H throws they explicitly state that models effected by these types of movement ignore free strikes. In general any movement that does not explicitly state that it ignores free strikes on the cards, or in the rules/errata do not ignore free strikes.

citizen10 wrote:no offense, sorry.

in theory, you actually could slipstream a Scather Crew. The problem would be that you could only move the catapult itself with one casting of Slipstream, so you would have to be careful about where the Crewmen are, so that when you go to activate the Scather they are still in base-to-base with the catapult model itself to move it again or fire/aim it.

np. I am not really following the conversation.

What you do with Slipstream, you can Slipstream the gun 2". Then you can move the guys and they can fire it. Otherwise moving the gun and firing the gun each use the Crew's action that turn. So the gun gets an effective range of 16" when combined with Slipstream. Combined with its effect where it leaves the cloud behind it makes a pretty decent shooting weapon for 27 points. Not to go off topic.

The crew can move INTO base contact and fire the gun, in other words, should they happen to not be in base to base at the beginning of the activation.

that's actually a rad idea, one that I had not even considered!

now if I can just get a place effect for Skorne, Khador or Mercs I'd be happy!