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I noticed that when confronted by my friend's high initiative units (genestealers)my Nobz and Ork boyz would get cut to ribbon.

they have the following upgrades Extended Carapace+Toxic Sacs+Implant attack+Scuttlers+Scything Talon

the result is a squad of 8 monsters that has a 4+ armor save,3 attacks (4 on a charge) that hits and wounds on a 3+, with rending and any unsaved wound causes a second wound (killing by Nobz in one hit or breaking my boyz [fearless if above 10]) and to top it all off they have initiative 6 vs my initiative 2 Orks...

Is there any tactics that I could use to stop these outrageous defeats on what my army is suppose to be good at....

Something you might want to try is a mob of Burnas accompanied by a mob of Grotz.

Here's how it works, mix the unit of Grotz in amongst the Burnas so that any charging enemy will be forced to engage the Grotz, and cannot engage the Burnas.

If a unit of Genestealers or whatever charges this mass, then they will rip the Grotz into bits, and then be left standing around point blank to the Burnas. Then you burn them.

If the Tyranid player isn't falling for that one, then you run the mobs forward, first the Grotz and then the Burnas. Use a buddy-system for the models will help you move them fast and make sure that the Burnas will have gaps in the runtherd that they can move into.

Once you are in Burna range, then you move the Grotz up and out of the way of the Burnas, who move forward and burn the selected Tyranid unit(s). After successful burnage, you run the Grotz back around the Burnas to resume the defensive posture.

If the Tyranid player attempts to shoot, then the Burnas can claim cover from the Grotz.

If you are confronted by any Carnifexes, remember that the best Initiative one of these beasties can get is I2, and your Burnas can charge at S4 I3 A3 Power Weapon. If you position your Grotz right, that Carnifex cannot charge your Burnas.

T4 4+ save. That pretty much says it all. Give them a feeder unit (a small one that is supposed to die) and then let loose with big shootas.

Some things you just have to shoot to death, doesn't matter if your good in HTH or not.

Combi-Skorchas on Nob units would do that trick nicely as well.

Nurglitch wrote:Something you might want to try is a mob of Burnas accompanied by a mob of Grotz.

Here's how it works, mix the unit of Grotz in amongst the Burnas so that any charging enemy will be forced to engage the Grotz, and cannot engage the Burnas.

If a unit of Genestealers or whatever charges this mass, then they will rip the Grotz into bits, and then be left standing around point blank to the Burnas. Then you burn them.

If the Tyranid player isn't falling for that one, then you run the mobs forward, first the Grotz and then the Burnas. Use a buddy-system for the models will help you move them fast and make sure that the Burnas will have gaps in the runtherd that they can move into.

Once you are in Burna range, then you move the Grotz up and out of the way of the Burnas, who move forward and burn the selected Tyranid unit(s). After successful burnage, you run the Grotz back around the Burnas to resume the defensive posture.

If the Tyranid player attempts to shoot, then the Burnas can claim cover from the Grotz.

If you are confronted by any Carnifexes, remember that the best Initiative one of these beasties can get is I2, and your Burnas can charge at S4 I3 A3 Power Weapon. If you position your Grotz right, that Carnifex cannot charge your Burnas.

Very clever and very nasty. I'm officially adding this to the arsenal.

You should shoot these stealers well before they arrive. Your pal has spent far too many points on them, and should be punished by never allowing them to do damage.

Also, I'm pretty sure he's abusing Implant Attack. Someone please correct me, but I think it ONLY affects multi-wound models. Therefore, it doesn't accumulate extra wounds within a single-wound squad. So, your nobs should die in one hit, but the boyz should be unaffected. (Someone please double-check this.)

Lootas or Burnas should provide all the shots you need. Plain shooty boyz can tear into that mess of wasted points.

you are correct in saying that the extra woulds allocated to the boyz are wasted, but he said that they would still count for who won combat and the extra wounds I would have to roll against if I were to lose the assault...

as to me shooting him... he can almost assault me on the first turn, this comes from the 12" deployment + 6"scout deployment + 6" move + d6"run (fleet of foot/claw/whatever) + 6" assault = 31"-36" of movement... if you add in my 12" deployment then he can assault me on a roll of a 6. I told him that I would not deploy that far... but he insisted that there was nothing I could do to him because I could only hit on a 6 and wound on a 4 then there was his armor save of a 4+... I did the math and it turns out I would lose around 8 Orks if I charged in from the initiative alone and because of the extra wounds being score (but wasted) I would lose another 10-14 Orks because they were fearless or worse get routed and cut down

i would suggest if you have transport vehicles use them to wall up valuable units, deff rollas are good and [hate too say it, im a burna boyz] but you can use lootas or flash gits to deal with them. or 3 or 6 killa kanz in a wall

QuietOrkmi wrote:you are correct in saying that the extra woulds allocated to the boyz are wasted, but he said that they would still count for who won combat and the extra wounds I would have to roll against if I were to lose the assault...

as to me shooting him... he can almost assault me on the first turn, this comes from the 12" deployment + 6"scout deployment + 6" move + d6"run (fleet of foot/claw/whatever) + 6" assault = 31"-36" of movement... if you add in my 12" deployment then he can assault me on a roll of a 6. I told him that I would not deploy that far... but he insisted that there was nothing I could do to him because I could only hit on a 6 and wound on a 4 then there was his armor save of a 4+... I did the math and it turns out I would lose around 8 Orks if I charged in from the initiative alone and because of the extra wounds being score (but wasted) I would lose another 10-14 Orks because they were fearless or worse get routed and cut down

He can say that but it does not make it true. The implant attacks only work on multi wound models, they do not count extra wounds against single wound models. Don't let him pull this again.

Also, Why only hit on a 6? That's not right either.

Take a look at your comparative WS chart again, QuietOrkmi; unless the difference is huge, it doesn't get worse than a 5+... and even against 'Stealers, Orks still have a 4+.

whoops wrong chart... that makes a bit of a difference....

So the extra wounds from the Implant attack do not count toward the assault resolution?

groz wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Something you might want to try is a mob of Burnas accompanied by a mob of Grotz.

Here's how it works, mix the unit of Grotz in amongst the Burnas so that any charging enemy will be forced to engage the Grotz, and cannot engage the Burnas.

If a unit of Genestealers or whatever charges this mass, then they will rip the Grotz into bits, and then be left standing around point blank to the Burnas. Then you burn them.

If the Tyranid player isn't falling for that one, then you run the mobs forward, first the Grotz and then the Burnas. Use a buddy-system for the models will help you move them fast and make sure that the Burnas will have gaps in the runtherd that they can move into.

Once you are in Burna range, then you move the Grotz up and out of the way of the Burnas, who move forward and burn the selected Tyranid unit(s). After successful burnage, you run the Grotz back around the Burnas to resume the defensive posture.

If the Tyranid player attempts to shoot, then the Burnas can claim cover from the Grotz.

If you are confronted by any Carnifexes, remember that the best Initiative one of these beasties can get is I2, and your Burnas can charge at S4 I3 A3 Power Weapon. If you position your Grotz right, that Carnifex cannot charge your Burnas.

Very clever and very nasty. I'm officially adding this to the arsenal.

This doesof course depend on a two dimensional respeonce from the Tyranid player. It assumes the oppjennt is fielding only Genestealers in this attack wave. There are many ways around this. Psychic scream will quickly clear grots for a start.

QuietOrkmi wrote:
So the extra wounds from the Implant attack do not count toward the assault resolution?

That is correct. They would count if he were actually dealing additional wounds, but he isn't. A single ork has one wound and will not count as losing more than one wound for the purpose of combat resolution.

If played correctly... here are the averages (which of course don't usually come up in a real game).

Assuming the genestealers do get to charge into orks.

Genestealers go first, 32 attacks. Hit and wound on 3+. 22 hit. About 4 rends and another 11 normal wounds. Expect to lose about 13 boyz.

If it's a full-strength mob, that leaves you with 16 slugga boyz and the nob. Your boyz get 52 attacks, hitting on 4+ and wounding on 5+. That's about 26 hits and about 7 wounds. He'll probably lose 3 or 4 stealers. Then the Nob gets 3 attacks, hit with 1 or 2, and most likely kill another stealer. So you lose combat by about 9 but are still fearless so you take another 9 saves. Thats about another 8 dead boyz, so you've got 8 boyz and the Nob up against 4 genestealers for the next round of combat.

Next round he gets 12 attacks, 8 hits, about 5 wounds. Say they all die. You get 9 attacks, 5 hit, 2 wound, 1 dead stealer (down to 3 now). Nob kills another. You lose combat by 3 so test against Ld 4. Chances are you'll get run down at this point. However those 2 remaining genestealers are really not that much of a threat. If they get to charge another of your units they'll inflict 3-4 casualties then get destroyed by the return attacks and you'll still be free to move and shoot with the survivors after.

If you charge him, you'll lose an average 6 casualties before you get to strike, then you'll kill all the genestealers without your Nob even having to lift his PK. So the Grot screen is a pretty useful tactic here.

Those are some stupidly expensive genestealers imho. Should be able to deal with them and the rest of his army if you don't play into his plan. Sit back and let your volume of fire thin them down. Force charges through difficult terrain -- he goes last where you can seriously reduce casualties and waste all those crazy upgrades. And as above -- implant attack wounds do not add to the resolution total unless they actually inflict the extra wound to a multiwound model.

HTH

yeah I've had difficulties with GS before too.

Playing a KOS I went in with burna buggies, they never got to burn but they did speed bump their charge so when my boyz struck back it was bye bye stealers.

Finished with a draw, which I felt was pretty good after multiple defeats.