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Under Chronus' entry he says, "Chronus MUST be assigned to one tank in the army" Normally one would think ok if i choose to take chronus he must go in a tank, but read his entry again then compare him to telion (the only other "sgt" character) he says "one scout squad MAY replace its scout Sergent with telion" so does this mean that i MUST take chronus if i take any tanks by RAW?

Chronus entry does not say MAY be purchased as an upgrade for a tank it in fact says MUST. This seems off, and RAI he is an upgrade but by RAW...

I have not set eyes on the codex but from what you have describe it seem RAW forces you to take him, but i think as you stated that RAI means to be an upgrade or whatever.

I noticed that, and my immediate thought was not only was Chronus mandatory, but a tank for him to ride in was necessary as well.
You're right, it is strange that it was written as 'must take' as opposed to 'may take' but I severely doubt that anyone would try to enforce the interpretation that Chronus is a must-have for every space marine army.

The only tentative idea I have that Chronus would not be necessary by RAW would be that the rule is written inside his unit listing, so it should only apply if you select him... maybe.

the rule states you must always assign Chronus to a tank, not that you must always field him.

G

also Chronus can only ever take command of one tank... He does come with a spiffy servo arm. I wonder if he can use it in close combat while embarked in his tank.

G

Yup, you must assign him to a tank but you don't need to buy neither him nor a tank. Just write "...and I assign Chronus to the predator I left home" at the bottom of your list.

A further note on Chronus: If you actually take him, remember that he is a HS choice of his own. [edit: this statement has been retracted by the author]

Webbe wrote:

A further note on Chronus: If you actually take him, remember that he is a HS choice of his own.

My codex says he is bought as an upgrade, not a separate HS choice.

"Special Rules: Tank Commander: Chronus is always bought as an upgrade and starts the game as a commander of a space marine tank."

He does not take up an extra heavy slot, since by his own rule he is an upgrade like a HK missle or extra armor. By the same token, he is not mandatory in every army.

Did you really sit down and think that ?

Chronus entry does not say MAY be purchased as an upgrade for a tank it in fact says MUST. This seems off, and RAI he is an upgrade but by RAW...

Red_Lives wrote:Chronus entry does not say MAY be purchased as an upgrade for a tank it in fact says MUST. This seems off, and RAI he is an upgrade but by RAW...

No - you are wrong - plain and simple. It isn't a RAW v's RAI. You are just wrong and your approach typifies why writing rules may seem easy but there is always someone who will do the unexpected.

"Chronus must be assigned to a tank" is the wording on pg 143.
"Chronus is alsways bought as an upgrade and starts the game as commander of a SM tank" pg 89

This doesn't mean he is a compulsory choice. He is an upgrade - if you take him he must be assigned to a tank.

i don't think red lives is actually suggesting that he's going to force SM players to take Chronus, i think the point of his post is just to play devil's advocate and point out how GW often has flaws in their rules writing.

Daggermaw wrote:i don't think red lives is actually suggesting that he's going to force SM players to take Chronus, i think the point of his post is just to play devil's advocate and point out how GW often has flaws in their rules writing.

and I am pointing out he is wrong and in this instance the GW rules are quite correct if one uses basic English comprehension.

fullheadofhair wrote:

Daggermaw wrote:i don't think red lives is actually suggesting that he's going to force SM players to take Chronus, i think the point of his post is just to play devil's advocate and point out how GW often has flaws in their rules writing.

and I am pointing out he is wrong and in this instance the GW rules are quite correct if one uses basic English comprehension.

Which is the case in 99.99% of all circumstances.

"Chronus MUST be assigned to one tank in the army" is the wording on pg 143.

"Chronus is ALWAYS BOUGHT as an upgrade and starts the game as commander of a SM tank" pg 89

Again i will never ever force someone to take chronus. But Again Chronus DOES say ALWAYS BOUGHT and MUST be assigned. It just seems like GW RAW might have messed this one up. Chronus doesn't say MAY anywhere in any of his rules, oddly enough everywhere may should be the word MUST is there instead. And from a 100% objective standpoint it seems off.

Red_Lives wrote:"Chronus MUST be assigned to one tank in the army" is the wording on pg 143.

"Chronus is ALWAYS BOUGHT as an upgrade and starts the game as commander of a SM tank" pg 89

Again i will never ever force someone to take chronus. But Again Chronus DOES say ALWAYS BOUGHT and MUST be assigned. It just seems like GW RAW might have messed this one up. Chronus doesn't say MAY anywhere in any of his rules, oddly enough everywhere may should be the word MUST is there instead. And from a 100% objective standpoint it seems off.

and what if you don't have a tank? must you now have a mandatory tank in your list?

100% objective stand point isn't a good point to make. I look at it from an objective point of view (don't we all) and I still say you are wrong and reaching for this interpretation.

I tend to look at silly RAW from a computers standpoint.

Given that for Chronus it says Must be assigned, and is 'always bought', cramming that into code would likely force a program to include chronus at all times, and if no tank was included, an error would likely occur.

It depends on the context in which one is reading it. If one is reading simply under what rules Chronus operates under *if taken* then there's no problem, if one is looking at it strictly from a logical cause-effect PoV, then RAW becomes silly and Chronus must always be included. whenever I run into a situation like this I tend to take the PoV that would not make the computer crash.

I had a good laugh when I read that. Then I read his rules... meh.

Not a HS choice, because it says he's an upgrade and he's in one of those boxes like transports.

It does mention that he is always 'bought' as something; an upgrade. Neither purchase nor upgrade imply neccessity. After his point cost it mentions that he must be assigned to another unit (a tank). Nothing like '1+' before the selection, obviously because he's a unique character and can't be bought twice. Not to mention that it just wasn't intended. Back to my first paragraph; I probably laughed because I knew someone would tried to call that up.

"Chronus is always bought as an upgrade and starts the game as commander of a Space Marine tank".

'...always BOUGHT as an UPGRADE'

not, 'ALWAYS BOUGHT as an upgrade'. That would be a pointless statement.

Webbe wrote:A further note on Chronus: If you actually take him, remember that he is a HS choice of his own.

Ok, I'm convinced, he's an upgrade. My reasoning was that as he has a seperate entry in HS section and no note that he didn't count as a choice as the command- and honour guard squads but I missed the "always bought as an upgrade" part of his description. My fault for ever thinking that GW would be consistent in their rules writing even in one codex.

So I retract the above quoted statement.

I would say because of the order it's not presenting what you guys are claiming at all "one scout squad in the army MAY replace its scout sergeant with segeant telion" means if there is an instance of a scout squad within your list you can change the sergeant for telion, similarly when it says "Chronus must be assigned to one tank in the army" it requires first and foremost that an instance of Chronus features in your army list, the MUST in this case is dictating that you cannot choose to deploy chronus in no tanks if he is in the army list the way you could choose for no scout squads to upgrade to telion.

But if that's the case why doesn't it just say, "one tank in your army MAY purchase Chronus" As telion's entry is written? It just seems absurd that they wrote it this way.

Because you're ignoring the second half of the sentences. How is Chronus bought? As an upgrade. Not an Independent Character, etc. Where must Chronus be assigned? To a tank. Not to a Tactical or Devastator squad, etc. If you read the passage quoted as a whole, you'll see nothing that states that he must be bought for the army.

It's the same deal as whenever one of those interminable arguments over 'Living Metal' comes up. Everyone gets their panties in a bunch, and you have so much 'rarrarar RAW,' and 'yapyapyap RAI' all because someone was basing their argument on only half of the actual rule.

Things like Chronus seem to be a non-issue when you read the whole entry in context, instead of cherry-picking fragments of it.

Erf, I feel dumber from reading this thread.

It all makes sense now in 1 month after the ruling GW will raise the price of Chronus to 150 dollars a figure and in order to play space marines at all then you must buy him.

MADNESS but genius at the same time.

Red_Lives wrote:"Chronus MUST be assigned to one tank in the army" is the wording on pg 143.

"Chronus is ALWAYS BOUGHT as an upgrade and starts the game as commander of a SM tank" pg 89

Again i will never ever force someone to take chronus. But Again Chronus DOES say ALWAYS BOUGHT and MUST be assigned. It just seems like GW RAW might have messed this one up. Chronus doesn't say MAY anywhere in any of his rules, oddly enough everywhere may should be the word MUST is there instead. And from a 100% objective standpoint it seems off.

I see the Arkham hospital for the mentally insane has had a recent breakout.

G

biztheclown wrote:Erf, I feel dumber from reading this thread.

Seconded.

Red_Lives wrote:"Chronus MUST be assigned to one tank in the army" is the wording on pg 143.

"Chronus is ALWAYS BOUGHT as an upgrade and starts the game as commander of a SM tank" pg 89

Again i will never ever force someone to take chronus. But Again Chronus DOES say ALWAYS BOUGHT and MUST be assigned. It just seems like GW RAW might have messed this one up. Chronus doesn't say MAY anywhere in any of his rules, oddly enough everywhere may should be the word MUST is there instead. And from a 100% objective standpoint it seems off.

Quoted for shame.

This thread is a perfect example of WHY the designers dont care so much about getting a lawyer to type up their rules. Cmon guys. Its a f%cking game for christs sakes. We all know that yeah, at every tournament is THAT guy, but what are they gonna do? FORCE you to use Chronus as is the example here? Big deal, it means you got unlucky and had to play that guy.

The other side of the coin is, the more the internet as a whole brings these issues up, the more "those guys" have fuel for their asshattery. My example from 4th edition and placing the 2 units close enough together so they were unassaultable due to the 1 inch rule. I'm sure jackasses tried to use that a LOW MORE after they read it online.

So unless you ARE "that guy", these threads about hidden eastereggs is just adding fuel to the fire. And if you are "that guy", go play magic or something. I sure as hell don't want to play against you anymore.