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padixon wrote:I2. Now after doing research and reading these arguments I am now leaning to the Calgar special rule *may* actually not trigger 'No retreat'. I say this not due to the rule books line "...for units to be immune to Morale checks...or to automatically pass them for some reason..." But due to the second paragraph that explains it a little more.

This is where I need you guys to follow me on this one. The second paragraph does state "These units do not take morale checks and will NEVER fall back. (emphasis is mine of course).

Except that there are too many examples of units that can and do fall back that can and do also suffer No Retreat. Tyranids in Synapse suffer no retreat, Tyranids outside synapse can fall back. Eldar near Avatar suffer No Retreat, Eldar without Avatar run away. IG Commissar actually has to FAIL a Morale test to trigger No Retreat, as do Space Marines without the Combat Tactics/God of War rule. I'm sure there are others. Basically, they screwed up on that "never fall back" bit cause everyone (even Fearless) can fall back under the right circumstances (Necron C'tan ability), so are we going to say that since everyone can fall back under certain circumstances, then no one is subject to No Retreat? That's what you're saying.

padixon wrote:Yes...but Tyranids in Synapse range are fearless (well assume to ALWAYS pass all morale checks), Eldar in range or the Avatar are fearless, IG Commissar executes (in which he most ALWAYS do) produces the never fall back state. In all these circumstances, a condition *changes* the units ability to choose to fall back and hence will trigger no retreat, because while in range or in the same unit of said unit, they will NEVER retreat.

But, Calgar never does this, there is ALWAYS a choice to fall back, there is never always a choice with ANY of the examples you mentioned (notice I used the word always that means in synapse range, next to the avatar, a screw ball commisar hangging out with ya...I am sure you get the picture here). Its like the SoB faith ability to make the fearless, it is an ability with defined parameters that make them fearless just like all the other things you mentioned. Sooo unlike Calgars God of War rule.

If you want an example (and this is the reason I am not completely sold on it too btw) is the Inquisitor Lords, because they basically have the same rule.

So how exactly did I screw this one up?

Didn't say you "screwed it up", just pointing out a problem in the logic that No Retreat cannot apply to Calgar just because he can choose to fall back. Point is, all of those are conditional, they are not "never fall back", just as Calgar's is conditional (ie you get to choose). If we are to say that only units which "never fall back" regardless of any circumstance (which is what it says since it lists no exceptions to never fall back) are subject to no retreat (and it doesn't say units that never fall back when this or that applies, it just says never fall back), then we have to say that no one is subject to No Retreat.

padixon wrote: the Inquisitor Lords, because they basically have the same rule.

And they are also subject to No Retreat if they use Iron Will to choose not to run.............

Basically it boils down to this, whether or not you (this is a group you, not you personally) think that getting to choose makes the choice to run or fall back "automatic". IMO, if there is no dice roll, it's an automatic pass or fail.

So what we're saying here is that the only units in the game that suffer No Retreat are Marine units that are caught on a Sweeping Advance?

This is due to the "never fall back" clause. Notice that this clause is not conditional or dependent upon a die roll or anything, just says they never fall back. Every unit in the game (including Fearless) can fall back, ergo, every unit in the game fails to meet this one necessary qualification to suffer No Retreat. Space Marines, however, have a clause in their codex (which of course will take precedence over the rulebook) that they suffer No Retreat if caught by a Sweeping Advance.

Pretty silly, ain't it? And yet, by pure RAW, that's the rule. Also silly (IMO, not trying to cast any personal aspersions at anyone) is thinking that being able to pass a test that normally requires a die roll without rolling dice isn't an automatic pass of that test. Besides, the fact he can choose to fail has no bearing or meaning on taht portion of the equation. The rule doesn't ask if you can automatically fail a test, just if you can automatically pass a test. And yes, he can say "I pass" and it is so. No element of chance or it not occuring. Pull out your dictionaries all you want, that is the definition of automatic.

But we're all going to disagree until GW FAQs it, which they probably won't because it's clear to them...............

Negativemoney wrote:Trasvi, The rules for Fearless state they will never fall back.

The only way a Fearless unit will ever fall back is if they loose the fearless ability. In that case they are no longer Fearless and thus can fall back.

C'tan special ability can force any unit, even Fearless units, to fall back. So they can and do fall back......................................

sourclams wrote:Only because the C'tan special rule trumps the rulebook special rule. Special Rule > General Rule = Dice

.

Yep, that's right. Point is, some are saying that only units which "never fall back" (ie never as in under no circumstance whatsoever), are subject to No Retreat while units that can fall back are not subject to No Retreat. Oh deary me, Calgar can choose to fall back so he doesn't qualify for No Retreat because only units which never fall back suffer No Retreat. I'm just pointing out that by that line of reasoning, since every single unit in the game CAN fall back, then only Marines caught in a sweeping advance are subject to No Retreat (due to ATSKNF, a codex specific rule). You can't use that line of reasoning unless you're willing to apply it to EVERY unit that CAN fall back.
And what about units that are sometimes Fearless (Eldar near an Avatar) and sometimes not, those same units with no avatar. Do we say that they are not subject to No Retreat while Fearless (near an Avatar) because they can fall back when he's not around? Nope. Nids in or out of Synapse, same deal. So why does it matter that Calgar can fall back (by choice)? It doesn't.
Personally, I'm in the "passes without an action" equates to an automatic pass and GoW is subject to No Retreat. Not that it's ever likely to matter in my games, I mean, IG beating up on Marines in hth....???? Maybe once in every 200 combats. But we'll all argue about it until (if....?) GW posts an FAQ on it. Carry on.

sourclams wrote:Are you really attempting to argue that interpretation? I mean, all those situations do is set Calgar even further apart from the 'No Retreat!' rules by making his 'Choice' option even more superior to automatic units that are forced to roll dice.

Of course not, merely pointing out the problems in someone else's argument.

IMO, any unit that passes a Morale test without rolling dice (ie without having to make an action that is normally required, one of the definitions of automatic) is subject to No Retreat.