The game is Bankrupt-uncalled for ranting

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**gorgon**

Redbeard wrote:And, I brought up how other game companies (WotC, Eurogames, video-fighting games) have managed to achieve systems that work for both casual players and tournament players, and he replied that they're just not interested. That as a game developer, he wants to write games that show you how to play the game the way that they do, and that their failure is a failure to communicate to us how they play, not actually a failure of the rules. He even said that they don't even look at FAQs when they playtest in the studio, because they all 'just know' how it is suposed to be played.

This is the real problem.

Jervis is a good guy, and I understand his desire to avoid having 40K turn into Advanced Squad Leader. I get that. But the studio completely misunderstands its role. Their job isn't to tell us HOW to play, it's to give us the tools TO play. Yet they keep twisting themselves into knots trying to dictate the HOW -- as if their way is the one true right way, revealed by a vision from God.

Jervis, I like you, and I like 5th edition. But you're a rules designer and not the Pope.

**gorgon**

Da Boss wrote:What Jervis said is depressing. It's basically "We're incompetant morons who don't do our jobs properly, and we're proud of it too!"

No, not exactly. It's "we play a certain way, and if you're not playing in a similar fashion, you're playing wrong."

The irony, of course, is that Jervis was one of the architects of the GT circuit. And yes, the GTs proclaim to be about friendly play and having a good time. But also note that (to my knowledge) the UK GTs have never included things like comp requirements. So it's never been *that* friendly, has it? And the GTs are still going strong.

Does that mean GW recognizes that tournament play is part of the hobby, or is it some kind of Frankenstein monster failed experiment that they can't seem to eliminate?

The answer (in true GW FAQ fashion) is yes.

**gorgon**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:As a strictly friendly gamer, my choice and attitudes to list writing do not hamper anyone elses enjoyment of the game. Against another purely friendly gamer, we get a decent narrative, and generally a close fought game to around turn 4, when someone is able to press the advantage. But against a Powergamer, he gets extentsion, and I at least get an opponent.

But a Powergamer? If he expects me to use a Powerlist against him, he in enroaching on my enjoyment. Tournaments are his natural stomping ground, but so obsessed is he, every game is a practice game. Everyone has to dance to beat of his drum of banality....

If I understand you correctly, I think you're off base here. If a powergamer goes into the game looking for a hard-fought, close game, and you bring a list that has no hope of winning or even competing, it's not going to be a very interesting game for the powergamer. Maybe his type of enjoyment isn't *your* type of enjoyment, but it could easily be said your disinterest in competing hurts his enjoyment of the game.

**gorgon**

scotts wrote:I have heard that the Heat thing in England is pretty hardcore and often too intense. Don't know, never been, that's just what I've heard. But the American GT system is in my opinion a great all around experience and overall representative of the best the hobby can offer. To me, I get a weekend of quality gaming, beautiful armies, new faces, new and old friends and a very small percentage of the unbathed or ill-willed.

Just to echo Scott's opinion here, I've been to about 10 or so US GTs, including the very first (and I have the shirt to prove it).

And I'd agree that they've almost always been a very good hobby experience.

MDG, I also can't speak for the UK system, but I think you'd have fun if you attended a US GT. You'd be surprised.

We used to have a guy where I live who held this banner high. He believed that he was the only guy in our group that really "got it" with regards to how an army should look and play. He had all sorts of list writing rules and thresholds in his head. If you built a list that violated his perception he instantly labeled you with some negative gamer tag and wrote you off.
He was an okay player skill-wise but his armies lacked gameplay synergy. He fielded what he liked and what he liked to paint and look at. Problem is he tried to insist everyone else do the same (in his view). It was difficult to play him. He lost most of his games and would get real upset blaming us, the codices, etc. I remember trying to dumb down my game so we could play and him not get upset and it was just miserable and dull. No friction, no intensity, boundless bitterness.
As a strictly (in his view) friendly gamer, his choice and attitude to list writing (and the game in general) severely hampered everyone elses enjoyment of the game. He was the inverse of the negative so-called 'power gamer' stereotype and a real drag.

See, I classify these guys as "closet competitive." They proclaim to be friendly gamers, but tend to handle losing very poorly and complain endlessly about "cheese." In the end, if you're truly a non-competitive player, you couldn't care less about cheese or even keeping score because *it doesn't matter to you.*

I respect players at either end of the competitive <=> hobbyist continuum and at all points in between, so long as they know what they want out of the hobby and enjoy it on their terms. I have a harder time with hypocrites.

**gorgon**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Then the powergamer should shove off and play someone more inkeeping with his style.

Like at his precious Tournaments.

What I'd say is that players should compare notes so as to go into games with similar expectations.

And once again, all "over-the-top" competitive players aren't tournament players, and all tournament players aren't over-the-top competitive.

You're painting with quite the broad brush, simply because they enjoy the hobby differently than you. It's the very definition of being closed-minded.