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If you combat sqaud a unit is it now worth two kill points or still just one since it entered the game as one unit?

2

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Yes, each unit is worth one kill point.

Two KP. This is why Combat Squads is such a powerful rule; because in a game using Kill Points you can choose to keep the unit together to minimize how many points you give up.

See the problem with this is that by the same logic a dedicated transport is worth 1 kill point then as well since it is a unit to itself once it unloads its troops, who then split into the two halves and become two more units. So now one unit just became three units (one kill point becomes three).

Not only that but you could make things like ICs become not worth a point by joining them with a unit to become one unit. Thereby reducing the kill points available from 2 to 1. If they all get destroyed at one time the "unit" is removed and the player gains only one kill point for killing what was two units at the start of the game (two kill points become one).

Is this all fine and dandy too?

Mannahnin wrote:Two KP. This is why Combat Squads is such a powerful rule; because in a game using Kill Points you can choose to keep the unit together to minimize how many points you give up.

Ummm I think you have "powerful" defined wrong. Basically you are giving your opponent an easier time of getting kill points and doubling the number he can get. This is not "powerful". The rule allows you to split the unit if you choose, not keep it together. No one else can force you to split a unit at random, if this were true then yes the Combat Squads rule would be powerful since marines would be the only race that could prevent someone from spliting your unit in two. However this is not the case.

Strimen wrote:See the problem with this is that by the same logic a dedicated transport is worth 1 kill point then as well since it is a unit to itself once it unloads its troops, who then split into the two halves and become two more units. So now one unit just became three units (one kill point becomes three).

Yup, Tau have the same problem, with their Gun Drones

Not only that but you could make things like ICs become not worth a point by joining them with a unit to become one unit. Thereby reducing the kill points available from 2 to 1. If they all get destroyed at one time the "unit" is removed and the player gains only one kill point for killing what was two units at the start of the game (two kill points become one).

Strimen wrote:See the problem with this is that by the same logic a dedicated transport is worth 1 kill point then as well since it is a unit to itself once it unloads its troops, who then split into the two halves and become two more units. So now one unit just became three units (one kill point becomes three).

Not only that but you could make things like ICs become not worth a point by joining them with a unit to become one unit. Thereby reducing the kill points available from 2 to 1. If they all get destroyed at one time the "unit" is removed and the player gains only one kill point for killing what was two units at the start of the game (two kill points become one).

Is this all fine and dandy too?

Ummmm, a transport is worth a Kill Point.....................

And as has already been pointed out, an IC is always worth a Kp regardless of joining a squad, retinue, etc.

In most cases, the rules tend to refer to the squads as presented on the lists. In the case of Space Marines, for example, the tactical squad is a 10 man unit. Even if you choose to split the squad, the entry on your list is still for a ten man unit, which leads to all sorts of confusion, but implies only 1 KP for the FULL squad.

A house rule my buddies and I use counts these split units as a half KP. Totals at the end of the game round all fractions DOWN.

I guess I am just unclear as to what a "unit" is. From what I have read so far though nothing says when you say a certain thing is a unit. I've only played one game of 5th since I was waiting for the Marine codex. What I see as a unit is a group of guys and I don't recall ever seeing the definition of a unit anywhere in the rules other than unit coherency and therefor if a character is in a unit (i.e. in coherency then he is part of the unit) and its 1 killpoint per unit. I saw the special case of the retuine spelt out, but no where for joining units.

Same goes for dedicated transports I thought they were part of a given unit, if not I pity anyone who uses drop pods in the new marine dex. If you use 3-5 pods then thats about all the points you could possibly get back against armies like necrons and he hasn't even botherd kill any of your "Units" yet.

Doesn't matter what it is on the list; what matters is the amount of units on the field. 2 combat squads = 2 KP.

lord_sutekh wrote:Doesn't matter what it is on the list; what matters is the amount of units on the field. 2 combat squads = 2 KP.

But again where is the definition of a "unit" in this game?

At the front of the rulebook. Also the combat squads rule tells you that the moment you deploy them separately, they count as separate units for the rest of the game.

And to reiterate, yes of course ICs and transports all count for kill points. It's really pretty darn simple.

Strimen wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Two KP. This is why Combat Squads is such a powerful rule; because in a game using Kill Points you can choose to keep the unit together to minimize how many points you give up.

Ummm I think you have "powerful" defined wrong. Basically you are giving your opponent an easier time of getting kill points and doubling the number he can get. This is not "powerful". The rule allows you to split the unit if you choose, not keep it together.

It's powerful because you have the choice at the time the game starts, after you know the scenario. You can choose to keep the squad together to minimize KPs, or split them up for tactical flexibility/to increase your number of scoring units if it's an objective mission. No other army can decide this at the beginning of the game. Everyone else is locked in when they make their army list.

See pp.3-5 of the main rulebook for a definition of "unit".

Ummm I think you have "powerful" defined wrong. Basically you are giving your opponent an easier time of getting kill points and doubling the number he can get.

Ummm... I think you should re-read his post. He is saying that you have the choice of keeping them together if you end up playing a KP mission, thus denying your opponent easier kill points.

But again where is the definition of a "unit" in this game?

you really should read Pg. 92 under "Multiple Unit Choices" this will clear up your (multiple) misconceptions about what are units and what provides KPs. It's really not that hard.

As far as Combat Squads goes, the Marine Dex specifically says that split squads are treated as seperate squads for all game purposes.

Reaper6 wrote:In most cases, the rules tend to refer to the squads as presented on the lists. In the case of Space Marines, for example, the tactical squad is a 10 man unit. Even if you choose to split the squad, the entry on your list is still for a ten man unit, which leads to all sorts of confusion, but implies only 1 KP for the FULL squad.

A house rule my buddies and I use counts these split units as a half KP. Totals at the end of the game round all fractions DOWN.

Out of curiosity, just how do you handle a full Mechanized IG platoon of a 5-man command squad, five 10-man squads and their six Chimeras................??

To further compound the insanity with kill point calculation, GW-Ard Boyz throws another wrench into the works by completely re-writing the rules for kill point scenarios.

So, bottom line is, RAW armies with more squads tend to give up far more kill points than homogeneous lists, however in tournament settings, depending on ruling, they can give up far, far fewer.

Uh, why are you parsing "homogeneous" to mean "less squads" when it means a uniformity of composition?

don_mondo wrote:

Reaper6 wrote:In most cases, the rules tend to refer to the squads as presented on the lists. In the case of Space Marines, for example, the tactical squad is a 10 man unit. Even if you choose to split the squad, the entry on your list is still for a ten man unit, which leads to all sorts of confusion, but implies only 1 KP for the FULL squad.

A house rule my buddies and I use counts these split units as a half KP. Totals at the end of the game round all fractions DOWN.

Out of curiosity, just how do you handle a full Mechanized IG platoon of a 5-man command squad, five 10-man squads and their six Chimeras................??

12 KPs

As for 'Ard Boyz, completely disregard those rules. They were created by a tradesales member just for Ard Boyz.

It says in the special rule that they are considered separate you nits for all gaming purposes from the moment they are separated. So if you wanted to capture objectives then you may want to split them up. However for kp as they have said its probably a bad idea.

None of us use IG, don, so it's never come up. Of course, the new codex ( which I'm getting tomorrow, along with the 5th ed rulebook since I've lent out my AoBR copy, ) may well change how my group plays certain situations.

Strimen wrote:I guess I am just unclear as to what a "unit" is. From what I have read so far though nothing says when you say a certain thing is a unit. I've only played one game of 5th since I was waiting for the Marine codex. What I see as a unit is a group of guys and I don't recall ever seeing the definition of a unit anywhere in the rules other than unit coherency and therefor if a character is in a unit (i.e. in coherency then he is part of the unit) and its 1 killpoint per unit. I saw the special case of the retuine spelt out, but no where for joining units.

Same goes for dedicated transports I thought they were part of a given unit, if not I pity anyone who uses drop pods in the new marine dex. If you use 3-5 pods then thats about all the points you could possibly get back against armies like necrons and he hasn't even botherd kill any of your "Units" yet.

For clarification, A Tac squad with a rhino has 2 KP's. A Fire warrior squad with a devilfish with attached gun drones is 3 KP's. Each seperate "unit" (that is, model or collection of models that act independently) are worth a kill point. Independent characters are always worth a KP regardless of whether they are attached to a squad or not.



Hence why IG armies using platoons have a minimum of 10KP's, and why a combat squaded Tac squad with a transport is worth 3 KP's.



Drop Pods, Rhino's etc are all worth a kill point.




Which is why Kill Points are ****ing slowed, and highlights the incompetency of the current design studio (mainly Alessio)

Nurglitch wrote:Uh, why are you parsing "homogeneous" to mean "less squads" when it means a uniformity of composition?

Because having all of the exact same thing, in 40k, tends to give up very few kill points. Like 180 orks. Or 150 spinegaunts. Or 80 tactical marines.

Having not-all-of-the-exact-same-thing, in 40k, tends to give up far more kill points. Like an officer with retinue, 3 guardsmen squads, and 4 chimeras to truck them around in.

You should dedicate a new thread and far, far too much time to refuting my position. You should also quote Dictionary.com, and generally try to use words larger than the thoughts that they contain. I'm going to be over here, in the meantime.

TISL wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Reaper6 wrote:In most cases, the rules tend to refer to the squads as presented on the lists. In the case of Space Marines, for example, the tactical squad is a 10 man unit. Even if you choose to split the squad, the entry on your list is still for a ten man unit, which leads to all sorts of confusion, but implies only 1 KP for the FULL squad.

A house rule my buddies and I use counts these split units as a half KP. Totals at the end of the game round all fractions DOWN.

Out of curiosity, just how do you handle a full Mechanized IG platoon of a 5-man command squad, five 10-man squads and their six Chimeras................??

12 KPs

13 KP. 6 for Chimeras, 5 for squads, 1 for command squad and 1 for the independent character officer.

Going by Ard Boyz rules, unless they are rewritten from the Prelims, that army is actually 5 KPs.

3 for the HQ, 1 for the Troop force org platoon, 1 for the 2nd Troop force org platoon, and 0 for the dedicated transports.

It's a very, very different ruling for KP calculation. Ard Boyz is this weekend so it remains fairly pertinent, as well.