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My first attempt at a real army, going for the full package, fluffy, competitive, non-gouda, game winning and fun.
I was going for a warp spider focused craftworld.
I am just worried about the size of it. I believe in quality over quantity, but I know not to use a scalpel against a biker gang.

HQ
Autarch-Warp jump generator, mandi’s, power weap, death spinner
He is attached to the spiders
175

Farseer- Stones, ward runes, Doom, Guide, and Fortune
X5 Warlocks, 3 w/ destructor, 1 w/Conceal and spear, 1 w/ enhance and spear
All stuffed in the falcon
366

TROOPS
Pathfinders x6
144

Pathfinders x6
144

Elites
Wraithguard x5 w/ warlock toting enhance and a spear
218
Wave serpent TL d-cannons*, stones
170

FAST ATTACK
Warp Spiders x8
Exarch w/ dual spinners, powerblades, and withdraw
218

HEAVY SUPPORT
Support Battery- D-cannon x3
150

Support Battery- Shadow weaver x3
90

Falcon- D-cannon*, fields, stones
190

Grand total- 2001

My reasoning with the equipping the d-cannons: Mounting a D-cannon on a platform costs the same as a brightlance anywhere else so I used that price to mount them where they would be cool and fit the warp spider theme I was shooting for. If I have this wrong please correct me. I know I need my opponent’s permission for this, but if they say no I just call them brightlances and go.

My intended tactics are to have one pathfinder squad sit at home base (aka; My main objective) with the artillery, and be a pain to all they can find. Pathfinder squad #2 infiltrates to nearest objective and waits for the WS loaded with WG to zoom in and create a crunchy shell around their chewy goodness. The spiders are the all-important mobile core of the army (highly mobile, armored, 9 man squad spitting out 20 S6 shots then 14 attacks AND 9 power weapon attacks on an assault, that can run away afterward sounds uber to me). The farseer’s Falcon provides heavy support to the spiders and acts as rapid-support for the rest, dropping off the turbo-charged death dealing cargo at the opportune moment. The farseer guides and fortunes the falcon until he disembarks, then he switches to doom/guide combo in aid of those who need it.

Definitely an against the grain elder army with only three sections, each called to do different things. Looks cool, feels fun and the theory is sound (to me at least).


All comments/suggestions are welcome. The only things sacred are the warp spiders.

Well, its a rather small army at the 2000 pts level.
I experienced with a Seer Council and found that small Councils don't cut it. By the way, two Warlocks should have embolden (one for backup), while conceal is waste of pts.
Wraithguard is very expensive. I'd run them with a Warlock on foot, fortuned by a Farseer. Or you could take Fire Dragons instead of Wraithguard as they can get the same job done vs. tanks.
Support batteries are an issue as they can hardly be hidden (area terrain doesn't block LoS).

Ok I think I found some good spots to change for some more meat in there. I take it I am not being a total gonad with the D-cannons?

I'll post a new list with a little more input.

You are going for a Warp Spider based craftworld and have one unit of Warp Spiders? They aren't even a full squad either. Also D cannons on Eldar vehicles would imho be far more powerful than Bright Lances due to the new blast rules (lose 12" of range to gain pretty much infinite strength (always on 2+) and a small template which doesn't miss). I could probably live with you playing them but mostly like at higher points than a Bright Lance.

Anyway, first off agree with everything wuestenfux has said will just add a few things.

I can never see the point in taking 3 powers on a Farseer unless you are playing 10,000 points or something and have points to burn, he will never make use of all this powers to there full effect. Personally I would drop Guide as the only thing which really needs it is the Falcon, while Fortune is an auto choice for this army and Doom will help out most of your units (and they need it more than the Falcon).

Also always take a Warlock with the Support Batteries as they let you fire at BS4 I think.

You are definitely short on troops, so will struggle in objective based missions and have enough easily killed units (notably the Support Batteries) so that you won't have an easy time with KP missions either. Believe it or not 6 Pathfinders are not that hard to kill, if you are playing a 5th edition adjusted army they will get flamed repetitively. Not saying they are bad by any means just won't be enough by themselves.

I would bump the Wraithguard up to 10 to get them as a nasty, hard to kill scoring unit or maybe fit some Jetbikes in there to keep up with your mobile list. Other option would be Avengers in a Serpent.

Just looking at the list I can tell that and any specialized units will kill off your army and you don't have enough to counter with. If your opponent gets any assault units near your firebase on your home objective then you can write off that objective pretty quick (lets say a full Assault Squad, a Terminator Squad and a Dread all Deep Strike in, how the hell could you counter all of that in 1 round of shooting bearing in mind that they would be able to kill off 2 unit of their choice beforehand, probably the D cannons battery and a unit of Pathfinders if it was me).

Sure the Council could counter charge but they specialize in staying alive and particularly at the moment don't have the numbers to put enough hurt on the enemy. Similarly the Warpspiders could counter charge but they aren't a unit designed to be in assault, they need the massed shooting first and if you lose that you are left with a bunch of S3 guys who will get eaten by massed attacks. You point about the uberness of the Warp Spiders is somewhat true, its just they need the support of the rest of the army to be successful otherwise they will end up biting off more than they can chew and die.

Hope this helps.

I was running with the numbers in front of me, the codex said a d-cannon is the same price as a brightlance so I ran with it

What would you say to 3 war walkers each with 2 cannons?

I am a bit reluctant to lose the warithguard, as they are meant to protect the forward pathfinders while benefiting from the latter’s long range covering fire. I have seen that everybody places priority on killing the WG, hoping to use them to split the enemy’s attention away from the spiders and falcon on the other flank.

I understand that flamers are THE anti-pathfinder weapon, but as I said they would have the crunchy shell of WG and WS. I am thinking that any flamer unit that makes it into range will by then have eaten 2 rounds of fire from the rangers themselves, 1, maybe 2 shellings from the artillery (if it is close enough), 1 round of fire from the WG and wave serpent, AND have to charge through melee with the WG. Any unit that can make that march has earned that objective, flamer or no.

I do see your point with troops deep striking on my artillery, I will fix that.

I have read that a full unit of spiders is difficult to hide. I had intended on keeping the farseer’s falcon well within its cannon range, dropping warp templates onto targets before even closing to gun range with the spiders, and dumping the council to help deal with units that get up the guts to move on the spiders.

The strategy of this army is to make the enemy choose between 3 points that must be dealt with, either they will focus on one point and fall to the other 2 or divide their forces to try and break the army as a whole but be unable to bring enough power to bear on each point and be crushed

I also found that my army creation excel spreadsheet double-counted my warlocks, shorting me by 200 points I will have the new army up after I get home.

Personnally, wraithguard elite choices are a waste. If you really love them, get 10 led by a warlock... conceal for some protection or enhance or destructor to make them beefier on attack. If you are looking for a counter attack unit, go with banshees or scorpions in a
waveserpent. Wave serpent would be optional for spiders.

You have more than enough points with your double costed warlocks... make it 10, add a second farseer and lose the falcon for a waveserpent.

4th Ed I loved the d-cannons but with TLOS and the state of most terrain, they are junk right now. If you want some indirect fire, look
at Dark Reapers with an exarch armed with a tempest launcher. Good anti-mech and pretty good at winnowing down hoards.
Otherwise get the add of a fire-prism. Very effective in 5th ed rules and good at AT work or anti-hoard.

If you want to focus on warp spiders, how about minimum squads and shoot for 3 of them.
If they are your focus, only the exarch is at all scary in melee. Then I would suggest an autarch with a warp pack as a good fit.
Doom the target unit and you have an autarch and a spider exarch with power weapons to cut them down to size. Rather than all your eggs in one basket, you have 2 or 3 spiders to throw around and cause mayhem.

Toughest part I see is you have no mobile troop to assault and take objectives. Perhaps a dire avenger in a wave serpent would give you a decent mobile troop choice to take an objective otherwise you go with one or two crunchy assault units to contest other objectives and just try to win every game 1 to 0.

What do you think of this one?

HQ
Farseer- Stones, ward runes, Doom, Guide, and Fortune
X10 Warlocks, 7 w/ destructor, 3 w/enhance and spear
522
Wave Serpent TL d-cannons, stones
170

TROOPS
Pathfinders x5
120

Rangers x5
95

Elites
Wraithguard x5 w/ warlock toting enhance and a spear
218
Wave serpent TL d-cannons, stones
170

Striking Scorpions x10
Exarch w/chainsabres, stalker

FAST ATTACK
Warp Spiders x7
Exarch w/ dual spinners, powerblades, and withdraw
196

Warp Spiders x7
Exarch w/ dual spinners, powerblades, and withdraw
196

HEAVY SUPPORT

Support Battery- Shadow weaver x3
warlock w/ conceal
130

Grand total- 1999

You are still missing the point with your troop selection. Assuming the Pathfinders infiltrate forward and the Rangers hang back, the Pathfinders will start the game most likely within Bolter range or 1 move out of bolter range at which point they will die, even with their awesome save they are T3 and massed fire will kill them. From here realistically you have to table me to win, and at this point, if I had the units to do it, I could blast the Rangers from a distance (just making them test is enough, they are only LD8), drop in a few flamer templates via Deep Strike, or just get any moderate or better combat unit into assault with them. If I do this you can now draw at best and I just have to keep the Council and Scorpions off a couple of my own objectives.

Seriously play a few games with them and you will see what happens. I have found Rangers to be an okay support unit but not one you want to lean heavily on, sit them on a back objective by all means (I put mine with Reapers usually) but don't count on them doing a hell of a lot besides capturing it if they don't come under much fire. You might just pull off a win with the 2 objective mission (put both units on your home base and hope they both survive) but the missions with more objectives you will struggle with only 2 scoring units. Just looking at your example, all that shooting wouldn't be enough to stop a half decent assault and so long as they avoid the WG they can get to the Rangers and kill them.

Just because the D cannon is the same price is the Bright Lance does not mean you can swap them around as you see fit, for starters they are attached to and used in different roles, on a tank the D cannon becomes mobile, making up for its short range and as I mentioned below, it is far superior to the Bright Lance. 3 Warwalkers with D cannons would be beyond nasty with the new Blast rule, worse than the old Starcannon spam walkers + these guy could destroy Land Raiders.

Second list is better, I like 2 squads of Spiders much more than 1, a few quick points though. You need Embolden with the Warlocks and Farseer, hell even 1 if thats all you want, it stops your awesome and hugely expensive unit running away and also slightly increases you chances of passing your Farseers power (not that you really need it). I would also swap the Warlock in the Support Battery to Embolden or just leave him with no power, you should be setting these guys up in cover or way out of the way so they can fire indirect from safety. I actually think that the Scorpions would do the job the Wraithguard had better as they can just infiltrate with the forward Pathfinders and be with them from the start, I would give the Exarch a Biting Blade or Claw though. This means you can drop the Wraithguard and get a big squad of Dire Avengers in a Serpent with Bright Lance for another scoring unit. You lose a bit of anti tank but the Spiders are actually good enough in this role with the Council there, they can spam the rear armour enough to ensure that not too many tanks are shooting and/or moving so that the Scorpions (krak grenades + Biting Blade on rear armour) or Council can get to them.

The thing is, I cannot playtest this army, I will probably only scrape together enough cash to get ONE army, and I only have the space to store ONE army. That is why I am looking for input from veteran players, what I get I am probably stuck with for a while.

I understand the need for more troops, but is the solution to all elder problems really “Put some dire avengers in a wave serpent” like everybody says?

I’ll try it at least, how does this look?


HQ
Autarch- Warp jump generator, Mandi’s, power weapon, death spinner.
Running with a unit of spiders.
120

Autarch- Warp jump generator, Mandi’s, power weapon, death spinner.
He is with the other unit of spiders.
120


TROOPS
Pathfinders x5
120

Rangers x5
95

Dire Avengers x10
Exarch w/ catapults and bladestorm
152
Mounted in WS w/ TL d-cannons (or brightlances), stones
170

Dire Avengers x10
Exarch w/ catapults and bladestorm
152
Mounted in WS w/ TL d-cannons (or brightlances), stones
170


ELITES
Striking Scorpions x10
Exarch w/biting blade, stalker, shadowstrike
202

FAST ATTACK
Warp Spiders x8
Exarch w/ dual spinners, powerblades, and withdraw
218

Warp Spiders x8
Exarch w/ dual spinners, powerblades, and withdraw
218

HEAVY SUPPORT

Support Battery- Shadow weaver x3
90

Support Battery- D-cannon x3
150


Grand total- 1996

Scorpions infiltrate with the pathfinders on forward objective. Rangers squat on home objective with artillery a comfortable distance away so anything deep-striking at either one eats fire from the other on my turn with a wave serpent on the way. The wave serpents surge forward to provide coveres LZ for the spiders when they warp in, and provide support until dumping their cargo either up front or jet back to the rear if support is needed there.

I do feel better having more than super spider pack, even at the cost of my beloved farseer.

I see what youre trying for and I feel it loses something without the wraith guard. Maybe a larger squad of 7 or 8 to guard the rangers?

Other than that I think it looks pretty good.
I think youre on to something giving the D-Cannons some more play and the farseer didn't really fit in anyway.

Mind if I try it with my group?

Its not going to work.
I opt for a mech army, with 2x Fire Dragons in Serpents, 1x Banshees in Serpent, 3x DAs in Serpents, and 3x Fire Prisms, led by a Farseer and an Autarch on foot.

DeathGryffin wrote:The thing is, I cannot playtest this army, I will probably only scrape together enough cash to get ONE army, and I only have the space to store ONE army. That is why I am looking for input from veteran players, what I get I am probably stuck with for a while.

I have limited experience with Eldar on the tabletop, so take this as you will. In my opinion, you've chosen a very finesse oriented army as your first (and only) army and without the ability to experiment with the various flavors that Eldar offer and find your rhythm, you're going to get fed up rather quickly. Especially if you're posting on these forums (in which most posters here are very competitive and direct their advice toward that nature). Try the tactics section on the Warseer forums for more laid back (and admittedly, often anti-competitive/bad) advice. Both Dakka and Warseer have some pretty good Eldar overviews. However, none of the information offers advice for staple units and armies. Sometimes, they just don't work for you... or their rules change with every edition.... Mech Eldar work well for many, but not all Eldar players. Though, Mech Eldar changed from mostly Falcons in 4th edition, to mostly Wave Serpents in 5th edition.

My first eldar army had Guardians, Rangers, warp spiders and dark reapers (models I thought were cool). They were lost in that order in my very first game with them.
The problem I'm facing with Eldar, is that they are very unforgiving if you screw up, and several units in the codex are either outclassed or just not really good for a majority of situations.
Without the ability to experiment with different units, you're hampering yourself and the army. Try proxying units in test games before you buy the actual models (just use bases or paper-stand-ins or something).
If you're just looking for an army that works, you may have to sacrifice the army you want. If you're looking for an army that "works", there are plenty of cookie-cutter mech lists available like the one wuestenfux presented above. If you're looking for something more your style, you're going to have to be more flexible and be prepared for some painful lessons.

Keep the victory conditions in mind when considering your army list. Rangers look great on paper, but are really paper tigers... really easy to kill and with the abundance of cover saves, they're not the greatest shooters... worse still, they're static. Guardians can work, but are generally pretty poor without help from an Embolding Warlock... even then, don't expect anything great from them other than sitting on an objective. DA's really have come in to their own as a Troop selection. I'd recommend at least 2 units of DA's in any army list. I'd prefer seeing at least 3-4+ total Troops selections for objectives.

The army I'm going to try next (1500)
Doomseer
10 scorpions with claw exarch and shadowstrike
10 Spiders
2x10 guardians w/scatter laser, embolden warlockseers
2x10 DA's exarchs with shield and both powers
2xWraithlord w/eml,bl
This list incorporates lessons learned from my previous list... and is just a stopping point until I can get my Skimmers painted up.
The lessons I learned;
1.) a static Eldar is a dead Eldar. No more Rangers/Reapers, there are other models that move and shoot
2.) Guardians need support from their warlocks and a little beefing up from a wraithlord couldn't hurt
3.) DA's rock more than I initially gave them credit for (and I only took 8 at the time), take more.
4.) learn how Spiders actually work and you may get more out of them.
5.) 5th edition has been steered towards more combat with all of the shooting cover available, you need a combat oriented squad to deal with incoming threats and preferrably stick around longer than a turn.
Even with these lessons learned, I'm still not satisfied with this army. I'll probably drop the spiders and guardians eventually. But it will be some time before I can get my skimmers, elites and more DA painted up.

What models do you currently own? Is there any flexibility at all in your budget for other purchases?

If you have the stuff to run it, go ahead. Give me credit if you win, blame me if you lose.

That standard mech list is one of the things I am trying hard to avoid. I am sure it is tried and true and has been used everywhere. I want people to know the "spider army" not just another eldar list.

As far as I can figure, running eldar inherently requires finesse since each unit has a specific task. That is why I chose eldar and to a greater degree, the spiders.

so far I have one painted warp spider exarch. I came up with the list by saying to myself "How do I make you bigger?"I know i could replace the artillery and all the rangers with a couple fire prisms and a foot slogging gaurdian squad. That however, just ruins the taste of the army for me.

DeathGryffin wrote:I know i could replace the artillery and all the rangers with a couple fire prisms and a foot slogging gaurdian squad. That however, just ruins the taste of the army for me.

hmm... ok... are you going for a spider "theme" in army selection, or a spider theme in appearance? you could very easily model and paint any eldar unit to look more warp-spider-y, giving you more freedom in army selection. Going for a spider theme in army selection however.... especially to your specific "taste".... I don't think you're going to find much effective advice to be had.

Warp Spiders can be a support unit. But they are too vulnerable vs large pie plates or drop podders.

I was aiming for the spider theme in army selection.
Looks like it needs more work and justification that I am ready to throw at it right now. I think I will try a more generalized list first.....how about an in-your-face-assault eldar force? 3 squads of banshees, 2 dire avengers, fightseer, wave serpents galore! That seems cheesy and easily squached. =
I will probably make a list just to look at it though.

Thanks for the insight

Fightseer? Well, the only Fightseer is Eldrad.
Yriel is the best Autarch to choose.

Eldrad just cheeses me off. The fiction says he is dead. Outright dead. So why is he in almost every eldar list I have seen? I am too interested in the fluff to run a guy who is dead and lost in the warp.
It might be cool to mod-up an Eldrad wraithlord for a model competition though.

There is a tradeoff between competitive lists and fluffy lists. Its hard to find both in only one list.

That is true.

It may hurt my effectiveness, but, I just do not see myself running lame-drad.

Any-hoo, the assault concept has taken over my brain. Stay tuned for sume fun.

Banshees are going to need Doom support to do anything.

My banshees do all right on their own, I use them as skirmishers and distractions while my Harlequins do all the CC.

I do have a question though: Maybe I missed it, but where in the codex does it say you can give WS' D-Cannons?

Sorry if its obvious, never seen it before.

Wave Serpent TL d-cannons, stones

Yeah, that's impossible. Armament depends on the other choices, either anti-infantry (2x shuricannon) or anti-tank (brightlance).

That is the catch of this army, and point of this thread.
The codex does not say you can. Serpents can only have brightlances, EMLs, scatterlasers, and shuri-cannons. This is not for "legal" play and needs player approval, but with logic on my side I could convince a few people to let it go.

You know it would be cool to see.

But surely Shadow Weavers are more spidery then?

I've been having trouble using Eldar for assault. Admittedly I don't have the models to field a biased force, but I've found the Banshees are all sorts of cannon fodder against most armies.

Warp Spiders are very specialised; easy wounds, nothing great against armour. I've seen them used really well to interrupt charges, as they can make a jump on the same turn that they deep strike in. But those were sacrifice moves; you want them out of combat, and the exarch only just makes them capable of surviving a moderate combat threat. I presume you could have great fun dropping them behind gunlines, but I've seen enough reasons to not field more than one unit at a time.

Have fun.

I actually run a Unit of Harlequins fitted with a Shadowseer and Death Jester, attached with a Farseer, and roll fortune on them every turn, and just charge and fleet the whole game. Banshees I use for skirmishers and to be distracting. Keeping the Pathfinders out of sight to pin squads, and letting my DA's pepper what they can.

DeathGryffin wrote:Eldrad just cheeses me off. The fiction says he is dead. Outright dead. So why is he in almost every eldar list I have seen? I am too interested in the fluff to run a guy who is dead and lost in the warp.
It might be cool to mod-up an Eldrad wraithlord for a model competition though.

WORD!

You say you don't have the money to playtest it yet will have a player base that will accept D-cannon's instead of Brightlances? The same player base should be open to you play testing witha substituted army, just make sure whatever you are using (army men and toy tanks make great guard armies, heard a bloke had enough lego men to field and army of several hundred, lol) is properly labelled next to the unit in something bold to avoid confusion (like on paper next to the unit). Yeah, I'm getting filthies from alot of people reading this, but then again, I don't have a crap tonne of useless models do I?

I've seen a maxed Warp Spider list done. It can be done, is a challenge to play yes, but they are a very solid anti-infantry based force if you can play them well enough, You seem to be packing enough anti-tank in there with the vehicles/d-cannons/brightlances but asides from that be careful with the troops et al, all the usual jazz. I like the twin Autarch's running with the Warp Spiders. Look it gets down to if you learn to use the force well, and abuse the cover et al, then you should be able to play a maxed Warp Spider army with quite some effectiveness. Just remember the Eldar work best when working together, 1 part has to supplement the other.

Auretious Taak.

My intended group is a weird bunch, they like the models to be accurate as to what is on them, but they are quite liberal with what you can put on them. This is a REALLY small town, practically cut off from major tounament play so they have their own cracked guidlines. I'll LEGO up an army. The shock value alone should get me some play.

Thanks for the input fellows.

DeathGryffin wrote:My intended group is a weird bunch, they like the models to be accurate as to what is on them, but they are quite liberal with what you can put on them. This is a REALLY small town, practically cut off from major tounament play so they have their own cracked guidlines. I'll LEGO up an army. The shock value alone should get me some play.

Thanks for the input fellows.

Haha, sweet let us know how it goes, but be sure you use lego pirates to get the authentic Eldar Pirate army going, hook hands and pirate hands all around.

Lego makes the best terrain imaginable though, cheap as, and handy for a variety of ever changing barricades et al.

So what you're saying by the small group is that you can take non-codex options if you can justify it, or rather have some fun with the rules. Why don't you argue for harlequin jetbikes, those are sweet as.

Auretious Taak.