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OK, in Codex Tyranids the Hive Tyrant is a MC that can be joined to a unit of Guard which the codex does spell out as a retinue. The FAQ says treat the unit as a unit with an upgraded character.

Now under KP, the rulebook says that:

a unit is worth 1 KP

IC (Edit: Character) and thier retinues count as a KP each

The Hive Tyrant though is not an IC (it was back in 3rd but not in the 4rth edition codex) so by RAW that 2nd bulletin point would not apply.

Therefore is Tyrant plus guard = 1 or 2 KP?

EDIT: Nevermind. Glad I caught this one myself. The exact language to KP is a "Character and his retinue are worth a KP each" the language doesn't even mention "indepedant". The Hive Tyrant is still a character, being an upgrade character not an IC. So Hive Tyrant + Guard = 2 KP.

If the codex says to treat the unit as a unit with an upgraded character than that's how you should play it even in matters of scoring.

It's not consistent with the way retinues are handled in 5th but the wording is clear.

The HT is treated as an upgrade character and therefore him+retinue are worth 1 KP total.

I agree, 1KP. It is not an IC

However, if he was an IC, once the squad was destroyed, he would revert back to being an IC and thus be worth another KP. I actually had this question come up in a game not too long ago.

Nevermind. Glad I caught this one myself. The exact language to KP is a "Character and his retinue are worth a KP each" the language doesn't even mention "indepedant". The Hive Tyrant is still a character, being an upgrade character not an IC. So Hive Tyrant + Guard = 2 KP.

pakman wrote:However, if he was an IC, once the squad was destroyed, he would revert back to being an IC and thus be worth another KP. I actually had this question come up in a game not too long ago.

Unfortunately, since 4th edition, TMC are never independant characters

The hive tyrant is not a character at all, it's a monstrous creature. Just like it says in the codex A tyrant and tyrant guard are one unit with no characters so are therefore worth one kill point

The HT is not an IC, and is not an upgrade character.

The Retinue rule is listed under the Independent Character heading (albeit on the next page). And while the paragraph uses the shortened 'character' term in the beginning, it clearly says the 'character' will revert back to an "IC" when the retinue gets destroyed. The 'character' shorthand is used elsewhere on the page, when it is obvious they are intending ICs.

The Retinue clearly refers to something with an IC.

In fact, the HT and TG do not even qualify as a Retinue as described in the 5E rule book. Yes, they use that term in the codex, but that isn't quite the same thing. The Commander in the last SM codex didn't use the term, but still qualified. The HT uses it, but doesn't qualify. Go figure...

Oh, and Space Wolf forces, ie the whole list, are called retinues too but (clearly) aren't.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:Oh, and Space Wolf forces, ie the whole list, are called retinues too but (clearly) aren't.

Man, wouldn't that suck. Kill the entire freakin' army and all you get is one KP.

pakman wrote:

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:Oh, and Space Wolf forces, ie the whole list, are called retinues too but (clearly) aren't.

Man, wouldn't that suck. Kill the entire freakin' army and all you get is one KP.

It sure would! And they all had to move in the same direction at the same pace etc. :-)

Anyways, I was wrong - each 750 point 'slice' of the list is called a 'retinue', that's why they have to have one HQ per 750 points.

Tortuga932 wrote:The hive tyrant is not a character at all, it's a monstrous creature. Just like it says in the codex A tyrant and tyrant guard are one unit with no characters so are therefore worth one kill point

coredump wrote:The HT is not an IC, and is not an upgrade character.

The Retinue rule is listed under the Independent Character heading (albeit on the next page). And while the paragraph uses the shortened 'character' term in the beginning, it clearly says the 'character' will revert back to an "IC" when the retinue gets destroyed. The 'character' shorthand is used elsewhere on the page, when it is obvious they are intending ICs.

The Retinue clearly refers to something with an IC.

In fact, the HT and TG do not even qualify as a Retinue as described in the 5E rule book. Yes, they use that term in the codex, but that isn't quite the same thing. The Commander in the last SM codex didn't use the term, but still qualified. The HT uses it, but doesn't qualify. Go figure...

Tortuga932 wrote:The hive tyrant is not a character at all, it's a monstrous creature. Just like it says in the codex A tyrant and tyrant guard are one unit with no characters so are therefore worth one kill point

Are you guys taking into account the Tyranid FAQ listed on the GW website :

"Is the Hive Tyrant an independant character? No, so it cannot join other units. The only exception to this, of course, is its retinue of Tyrant Guard. This unit follows the rules for retinues (except that the Hive Tyrant counts as an upgrade character for this unit) until all the guards are destroyed, at which point the HT reverts to the normal rules of MC."

The Annihalation Scenario states "a character and his retinue are worth a KP each"

I would love the unit to be only 1 KP, but I am just not seeing it at this point

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

pakman wrote:

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:Oh, and Space Wolf forces, ie the whole list, are called retinues too but (clearly) aren't.

Man, wouldn't that suck. Kill the entire freakin' army and all you get is one KP.

It sure would! And they all had to move in the same direction at the same pace etc. :-)

Anyways, I was wrong - each 750 point 'slice' of the list is called a 'retinue', that's why they have to have one HQ per 750 points.

Wolfguard are either treated as a retinue for an IC or as an upgraded character for a unit.

wyomingfox wrote:
Are you guys taking into account the Tyranid FAQ listed on the GW website :

"Is the Hive Tyrant an independant character? No, so it cannot join other units. The only exception to this, of course, is its retinue of Tyrant Guard. This unit follows the rules for retinues (except that the Hive Tyrant counts as an upgrade character for this unit) until all the guards are destroyed, at which point the HT reverts to the normal rules of MC."

The Annihalation Scenario states "a character and his retinue are worth a KP each"

I would love the unit to be only 1 KP, but I am just not seeing it at this point

Yep. That is a horribly written FAQ answer which, among other things by the RAW indicates that a Tyrant with Guard loses his Monstrous Creature status (and would therefore not ignore armor saves or roll 2D6 for armor penetration, etc).

So you are technically correct by the RAW however the vast majority of people reading that FAQ answer can probably figure out what they were trying to say despite how they wrote it.

The point of the question/answer (IMHO) is to illustrate that the Tyrant is fully part of the unit, not a green light to assume the Tyrant is a character and should give up an extra Kill Point and lose his Monstrous Creature status when he has Guards.

Why can't a Hive Tyrant be both an MC and an upgrade character?

gaylord500 wrote:Why can't a Hive Tyrant be both an MC and an upgrade character?

Well. . .he could be, but that's not what the FAQ says.


The problem is, a Hive Tyrant isn't a character in any way by the standard codex rule. The rule was actually pretty darn clear in the codex IMHO, but GW decided to respond to a question people keep asking since they can't wrap their head around the fact that the Hive Tyrant hasn't been an IC since this last codex came out.

So they ask: Can the Tyrant be picked out in combat like an IC?

And GW responds with a horribly written FAQ answer that causes more problems than it solves because the rules without the FAQ were perfectly clear in this particular case.

yakface wrote:Yep. That is a horribly written FAQ answer which, among other things by the RAW indicates that a Tyrant with Guard loses his Monstrous Creature status (and would therefore not ignore armor saves or roll 2D6 for armor penetration, etc).

That is just plain mean

Also note that if you're going to award a point based on the Hive Tyrant being an upgrade character, wouldn't that mean any squad with a Vet Serge or a Nob be worth two KPs because of the upgrade character?

Aduro wrote:Also note that if you're going to award a point based on the Hive Tyrant being an upgrade character, wouldn't that mean any squad with a Vet Serge or a Nob be worth two KPs because of the upgrade character?

Naw, the rule only applies to Characters in "retinues". Retinues are pretty well defined so no worry.

No, neither a tactical squad, nor a mob of boys is a special unit, nor is it called a retinue, bodyguard, etc.

Besides which, Veteran Sergeants are no longer upgrades, nor chracters. At least not for Codex marines.

wyomingfox wrote:

coredump wrote:The HT is not an IC, and is not an upgrade character.

Are you guys taking into account the Tyranid FAQ listed on the GW website :

Nope, I sure wasn't...

The Annihalation Scenario states "a character and his retinue are worth a KP each"

So I will go back to the definition of a retinue in the BRB; as defined, it can only be with an IC. The shorthand of only using 'character' is used several places where they are *only* talking about an Independent Character, it is most sensible that it is that way here also.
Now, the Nid Dex/FAQ can be considered to trump all that....

At which point I will follow Yaks line of reasoning.... just poorly thought out FAQ answer.

Actually the Retinue rules never references Independant character to start. The wording is Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the gamne (which is normally called a retinue, bodyguard, or similar. Where this is the case, the chracter starts counting as an upgrade character until all other members of this unit are killed, at which point it counts as an independant character.

It does not clearly state rever back to... it states "starts counting as".

That taken with the FAQ:

The HT with the TG is an upgrade character while the guard are alive, as soon as the guard are killed, instead of becoming an IC, its just a TMC.

The retinue rules are in the section of rules about ICs. Just like joining a unit, etc.

After reading the FAQ, I think it's probably 2 KP. I think it says that it's not an IC, it's not an MC while it has a retinue, but pretend it is do the regular retinue rules in that situation anyway.

This concept of retinues and only working with ICs not a regular upgrade character seems bizarre to me since the main strength of an ACTUAL retinue rather than just attaching to a unit is that it turns what was once an IC (able to be picked out in combat) into an upgrade character(not able to be picked out).

How then, can a character and his retinue be worth 1 kill point each if only Independent Characters apply in this situation.

Drunkspleen wrote:How then, can a character and his retinue be worth 1 kill point each if only Independent Characters apply in this situation.

Because GW reasoning flies in the face of common sense