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Ahoy there folks, I'm sure this has been covered in general glue threads, but I've been using Zap Super glue lately with a generic FLGS brand accelerant and I've been lately having some difficulty with my metal sternguard, vanguard and land raider crusader bolters (still stupidly trying to fix them gack...)

Anyhow, I've been having some real bad luck lately being the clutzy putz that I am, I'm finding that if I bond the model joints, (particularly arms) with the zap glue and then carefully dab a drop of accellerant on them, the bond that forms is...well really really weak, plus it leaves this nasty mass of gunk that doesn't seem to do anything except clog the joint. So weak that even just accidentally tipping the model over once I've based it is causing the joints to pop off forcing me to chisel away at the plastic gunk that's formed and try again.

I guess what I'm wondering can be categorized in the following -

-Is this normal behavior for Super Glue, Zap Glue in particular?

-Does using an accelerant cause the weak bonds to form or is it just becuase of the stress the joints have on the glue itself?

-If zap is just a poor product can anyone recommend a fairly fast setting super glue for work with metal models?

Thanks agian for the help!

it sounds to me like either your glue, or accelerate or both went bad. i bought a bad batch os super glue just recently and first it just dried around the tip to the point that i HAD to cut the tip off(now its only good for big gluey things) and it too was doing odd things to my minis. it still held but was just drying weird.
try a new batch and see what happens

Instead of accelerant, I've started using a tiny ball of greenstuff for every connection, along with the usual dose of superglue. The results have completely changed the way I build models. The greenstuff holds the connection while the glue and putty hardens. Then the bond ends up being part superglue part glue-hardened greenstuff.

Also helps if the joint ever pops out during a fall or something. The two pieces will fit perfectly together thanks to the putty, and a tiny bit of glue will form the best bond here.

Moz'z idea sounds clever.

I have always used Araldite on crucial parts. There is a 5 minute setting version. You need to hold the parts in place during the curing time.

Moz has a good idea, but be warned... IF your arm(for example) ever comes detached from the rest of the mini AND you lose part of the greenstuff that was holding it on/in, you're in trouble. The join will RAELLY be screwed then, and simple superglue will NOT hold it in place.

That is why I stopped using that method (plus, GS is too expensive for that, IMO LOL)


As for your specific issue... Nope. Everything's operating exactly how it was meant to.

A lot of people don't realize it, but accellerant is NOT the "miracle product" that many claim it to be.

When you superglue 2 pieces together WITHOUT accellerant, the glue takes time and sets normally. As it dries, it reduces, while holding the two pieces together. That gives you a more solid bond.

When you drop/drip/squirt/spray accellerant onto the glue, all you do is cause it to harden (almost) immediately. It doesn't reduce like it normally would, so you get your clumps. Since it didn't take the time to set, the only thing holding your pieces together is a semi-solid piece of... STUFF... that's very brittle and weak.

Try this... TOTALLY clean the join. Get all the dried gunk off and give it a SLIGHT scrubbing to remove any accellerant (that stuff will still affect your glue DAYS after it "dries" or "evaporates."). Now, use a small drop of superglue on the piece in each spot where it would be appropriate. Then, assemble the pieces... and hold them together until they hold firm without any help from you. Finally, set the model aside for AT LEAST 15 minutes.
Yes. It will take longer... but your bond will be FAR stronger in the end.

Also, whenever possible, ALWAYS pin metal where it joins.

There is no shortcut to good modeling.


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:Moz has a good idea, but be warned... IF your arm(for example) ever comes detached from the rest of the mini AND you lose part of the greenstuff that was holding it on/in, you're in trouble. The join will RAELLY be screwed then, and simple superglue will NOT hold it in place.

That is why I stopped using that method (plus, GS is too expensive for that, IMO LOL)


As for your specific issue... Nope. Everything's operating exactly how it was meant to.

A lot of people don't realize it, but accellerant is NOT the "miracle product" that many claim it to be.

When you superglue 2 pieces together WITHOUT accellerant, the glue takes time and sets normally. As it dries, it reduces, while holding the two pieces together. That gives you a more solid bond.

When you drop/drip/squirt/spray accellerant onto the glue, all you do is cause it to harden (almost) immediately. It doesn't reduce like it normally would, so you get your clumps. Since it didn't take the time to set, the only thing holding your pieces together is a semi-solid piece of... STUFF... that's very brittle and weak.

Try this... TOTALLY clean the join. Get all the dried gunk off and give it a SLIGHT scrubbing to remove any accellerant (that stuff will still affect your glue DAYS after it "dries" or "evaporates."). Now, use a small drop of superglue on the piece in each spot where it would be appropriate. Then, assemble the pieces... and hold them together until they hold firm without any help from you. Finally, set the model aside for AT LEAST 15 minutes.
Yes. It will take longer... but your bond will be FAR stronger in the end.

Also, whenever possible, ALWAYS pin metal where it joins.

There is no shortcut to good modeling.


Eric

Hrm figured as much, thanks for the advice mate, I guess I have a lot of dremeling to do to get all that gunk of out those joints there....*sigh*

As for pinning is that the same as inserting those thin copper rods that came with my hobby drill? I wasn't sure how to use them so I figure that's probably what they're for.

Thanks again for the heads up!

I've seen similar issues with Zip-Kicker. I really think that this is an issue with the accelerant, and that the process forms a different bond than the on that would normally form without it.

I don't typically have these problems and I use quite a bit of ZAP and Zip Kicker. Couple tips:

1. In air metals form an oxide layer, remove the oxide to reveal shiny (bare) metal with small jewelers files, sandpaper or by scraping the blade of an exacto across the flat bonding surfaces.

2. Flat parallel surfaces make the best bond.

3. Apply the Cyanoacrylate glue (Zip). I usually try to get the piece in place, hold it for 5-10 seconds let the Zip start to set to make sure that the weight is well supported I will then let go of it, if you haven't done 1 or 2 right it will probably fall off pretty quickly.

4. Little zip kicker to accelerate the reaction. Then don't touch it for about a minute to allow the reaction to finish.

If you put too much glue on you will likely run into problems, try to minimize the Zip.

If you have residue left after a failure it usually scrapes off easy with an exacto or file. Get it back to shiny metal and then start again. If you leave any residue on the model the new Zip will stick to that and peel off pretty easy.

Good Luck, dont glue your fingers together.

Actually, 'flat' surfaces make a really bad bond. Superglues have almost no shear strength, and this type of bond just makes it easy to torque the pieces apart (there's enough torque generated by a 3 foot fall onto the floor).
Surface area is what helps. Roughen up the 'flat' surfaces with sandpaper a nailboard or a file and then apply the glue.

Not only are you cutting back on the oxides, but you are giving the glue more contact area to grip. This technique also works with araldite (what I use for larger pieces).

chromedog wrote:Actually, 'flat' surfaces make a really bad bond.

I stand corrected,"flat" was not the right word, large bonding area is what I should have written. Macroscopically flat, microscopically rough.

Welp I went about repairing the broken models from my last game tonight.

I went ahead and went with the advice of several folks here and did not use accelerant on the models. It sure as heck was a lot slower, but I'm definitely noticing a lot less "gunking" and caking with the set glue and it seems to be holding a lot better!

....

Huh...guess it's finally time to attack those hurricane bolters on my LRC again....

*whimper*...