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In the new Marine codex the entry for the Thunderfire gun states that the Techmarine becomes an independant character if the gun is destroyed. However, no where do I see any statistics for the weapon itself in terms of AV value and the like that usually accompany artillery. How does one go about actually destroying the gun? Did I just miss a statline somewhere?

Read the artillery rules in the main book. The gist is the following

Any shots against the thunderfire unit, roll a d6. 1-4 hit is resolved against the gun, 5-6 hit is resolved against the tech marine crew.

The gun is treated as AR10 all around and any glance or pen will destroy it (let that sink in a bit).

Cover still applies as per the multiple models in cover rule (far as I can tell) but the gun cannot get a better cover save from going to ground.

HTH

So if your opponent has a lascannon, what happens? Hm, on a 3+ it hits. After it hits, it will end the thunderfire (either destroying the TF, or killing the techmarine and removing the TF) 11 out of 12 times. (i.e if it happens to hit the techmarine, and then rolls a 1 to wound). There is the chance the techmarine is in cover - if so, the lascannon only ends the thunderfire 3 out of 4 times.

All for 100 points.

Okay! Well now.

Just remember that most cover will provide a 4+ Cover Save which can be improved to a 3+ from the Tech marine's Fortify defenses special rule. so Just keep him in a good location and you should have no problem with keeping it alive.

Who shoots a single gun at a unit? The TF is pretty much dead if it takes any fire from any squad that actually wants it dead. It will take luck to keep it alive.

Sorry, yes. For each lascannon...

Jayden63 wrote:Who shoots a single gun at a unit? The TF is pretty much dead if it takes any fire from any squad that actually wants it dead. It will take luck to keep it alive.

Very true. It really is a glass cannon.

Most artillery is. At least the thunderfire has a 60" range doesn't it? Try using Eldar platforms sometime. Since most terrain doesn't bock LOS anymore with a 24" range on the D-Cannon getting assigned as crew must be punishment detail.

The TF Cannon is rarely (at least in my games so far) the primary target. Most shooting goes to the higher Armor tanks, or the more rapidly approaching squads. I think the cannon has only been shot at once in 4 games with it so far.

Never forget as well the value of making your opponent make choices about what bad things he wants to shoot at. If he doesn't commit fire to your 100 point cannon it's going to lay some serious wounds on his units. The first time I saw someone fire a thunder-fire cannon in a game it dealt out 17 wounds with shooting. It took 3 turns for the opponent to destroy the thing in its 3+ improved cover. That's quite a bit of shooting that didn't get to go after marines.

Ahhh ok, I wasn't aware that artillery had a set profile in the main rule book. No one I know plays with artillery of that sort, so I must have just skimmed right over it.

Thanks for the help!

Dr Phibes wrote:Never forget as well the value of making your opponent make choices about what bad things he wants to shoot at. If he doesn't commit fire to your 100 point cannon it's going to lay some serious wounds on his units. The first time I saw someone fire a thunder-fire cannon in a game it dealt out 17 wounds with shooting. It took 3 turns for the opponent to destroy the thing in its 3+ improved cover. That's quite a bit of shooting that didn't get to go after marines.

Should the Cannon (or any artillery piece) be eligible for an improved cover save? I thought that because an artillery piece is treated as a vehicle it can only gain a cover save via being obscure instead of being in cover. So therefore, the maximum cover save available would be a 4+, unless you have that wacky firing at a section which isn't the section facing you cover save of +3.

If the Thunderfire cannon is treated as a vehicle, & vehicles go by obusure rules, then you would not be eligible for any improved cover save, correct?

Nevermind, I just reread the rules and as long as the gun is 50%+ obscured it will get the cover save, incruding increase.

Where did you see that Asugradinwa? Not that I mind, but I didn't see that. I had been playing the 50% cover rule myself, putting the gun just outside area terrain, and the techmarine gunner in it... as half the unit was in cover, the unit got a cover save.

asugradinwa wrote:Nevermind, I just reread the rules and as long as the gun is 50%+ in cover it will get the cover save, incruding increase.

Shouldn't it have to have 50% obscured? I can't find any exception for artillery vehicles receiving saves unlike other vehicles.

IMHO i think the Thunderfire cannon is a pretty good weapon, the "underground" shot is just great. 4 templates of str4 that make the unit go into difficult terrain with one dice less, to stop mobs of orks, wraithlords, or any footsloger is incredible good. But is balanced to because it can be killed so easily wich is not that easy having 60' of range, sad that it isn't a mortar like weapon.

Breton wrote:Where did you see that Asugradinwa? Not that I mind, but I didn't see that. I had been playing the 50% cover rule myself, putting the gun just outside area terrain, and the techmarine gunner in it... as half the unit was in cover, the unit got a cover save.

Well here is where cover saves get sticky, as the thunderfire is an artillery piece it is treated as a vehicle, a vehicle only gets a cover save if it is 50% or more obscured. Therefore, if the tech marine is in area terrain & the thunderfire is sitting outside not obscured I would not count it as getting a cover save, however; the tech marine would receive it.

ConditionOfMan wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:Nevermind, I just reread the rules and as long as the gun is 50%+ in cover it will get the cover save, incruding increase.

Shouldn't it have to have 50% obscured? I can't find any exception for artillery vehicles receiving saves unlike other vehicles.

Sorry I should have said 50%+ obscured.

asugradinwa wrote:

Breton wrote:Where did you see that Asugradinwa? Not that I mind, but I didn't see that. I had been playing the 50% cover rule myself, putting the gun just outside area terrain, and the techmarine gunner in it... as half the unit was in cover, the unit got a cover save.

Well here is where cover saves get sticky, as the thunderfire is an artillery piece it is treated as a vehicle, a vehicle only gets a cover save if it is 50% or more obscured. Therefore, if the tech marine is in area terrain & the thunderfire is sitting outside not obscured I would not count it as getting a cover save, however; the tech marine would receive it.

But the Techmarine + TF Cannon are a unit, and if half the unit is in cover, the entire unit gets a cover save.

Correct they are a unit, but the TF cannon is treated as a vehicle, and vehicals only recieve a cover save if obscured.

Page 62, if a special rule, or piece of wargear confers the ability of being obscured even if in the open, this confers a 4+...

So the rule of 50% of a unit in cover would give the TF cannon a 4+, but not the 3+ if the techmarine had fortified his own cover?

And yes, I could see that giving intervening model cover saves to Eldar Grav Platforms even though the grav platform is more than twice the size of a given model.

I'd think they'd both have the same cover save or no cover save. The sequence would be like this.

Does the unit have cover?
Techmarine=yes 3+
Cannon= no not 50% obscured
Unit= 50% or more of the unit has a 3+ CS so the unit has a 3+ cover save.

A unit can only ever have or not have a cover save (or have that borderline save of 1 less than the applicable cover). You don't have saves for 1 part of the unit, but not others. Note that this would apply to all artillery, not just the thunderfire.

Example: A lobba with a gun and two grot crew has three models. If the grots were in cover, but the gun was plainly visible the unit as a whole would still have a cover save. (2 in 1 out).

I concur with Kyrolon.

The Unit gets a cover save, or not. You can't mix and match