Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This may be covered somewhere nearby, but I haven't seen it.

Does a Tyranid brood in Synapse range become Fearless?

In the rules for Synapse it never says they are Fearless, only that they pass all Leadership Tests. So it is worded very similar to Fearless, without saying they are Fearless. I would hope they do NOT become Fearless, because that would make my Hormagaunts nigh useless against Marines.

Depends on why you are asking.

No. they do not become fearless.

Yes, they do suffer No Retreat wounds if they lose combat.

Just don't lose combats against marines. (Or at least, not by much.)

I guess you're thinking about not having to take extra wounds if losing the CC? Unfortunately you're out of luck as the rule is written as "fearless troops or equivalents (auto passing Morale)" more or less. So, your Hormies are gonna take a lot of extra wounds if they lose the CC.

Well. Damn. I was hoping not to have that issue.

Yes, its a very significant detriment to setting up multiple (tyranid units) melees, because the presence of gaunts assure the bugs are going to loose the melee and the other units in the combat are going to have to make saves for every gaunt they lost by, I have had carnifexes killed because of this that couldn't even be wounded by the troops they were fighting because the gaunts came to "help".

It is one of the most glaring problems with 5th, where weight of numbers makes you worse in combat...?

For the record hormagaunts are completely worthless.

You can't inflict "No Retreat" wounds on a unit that you're unable to hurt. It's very plainly stated in the rules.

I don't see what the problem is. "Lost combat" is a morale issue and crunching lots of little Tyranids is a great morale-booster even if there's a Tyranid the size of a house standing right next to them.

Yes, and then every fearless unit in the combat has to make a number of armor saves equal to the number of models they lost the combat by, which means if a few marines can bring down 3 or 4 more gaunts than the bugs can kill marines, then they will effectively get that many free wounds on every other unit in the combat.

Brian P wrote:You can't inflict "No Retreat" wounds on a unit that you're unable to hurt. It's very plainly stated in the rules.

really and where is that?

The Hive Mind and Synapse Creatures, Tyranid Army Special Rules, p.28, Codex: Tyranids wrote:Any Tyranid broods with a model within 12" of a Synapse Creature (including the Synapse Creature itself) never fall back and are assumed to automatically pass any Leadership-based test they are called upon to make, other than psychic tests and those called upon for target selection.

Morale Checks, Morale, p.43, Rulebook wrote:It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault, or to automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, be subject to a vow or some other special rule).

These units do not take Morale checks and will never fall back.

Augustus:

It is stated on p.44, under No Retreat!:

"If none of the enemies involved in the combat against a fearless unit can actually hurt it, the unit does not suffer any wounds if its side is defeated in combat, and simply continues to fight."

OK, so I should have drawn a distinction between CAN't Hurt it and DIDNT because they need to roll 6s, I guess that T7 is really important...

Morale Checks, Morale, p.43, Rulebook wrote:It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault, or to automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, be subject to a vow or some other special rule).

These units do not take Morale checks and will never fall back.

Just remember the new way to play gaunts in CC, move the synapse creature away from them as you prepare to charge them.

InquisitorFabius:

That's just crazy talk. Better to hold our breath until GW takes notice and changes the rules so we don't have to sully our beautiful minds with tactics.

A little unrelated: on of my friends is playing with insanely fast nids by exploiting Synapse:

he starts with a winged tyrant and some gaunts in synapse range. moves the winged model as far forward as possible. Nids fall back 3D6" towards the tyrant. then they run, fleet, and assault, for a potential of 36" movement (more likely 20-24", but thats still a lot).

hopefully the rules will be revised so that it's better to have your nids IN synapse range again.

Augustus wrote:
For the record hormagaunts are completely worthless.

Try taking a few huge units with the +1 Strength, +1 Initiative & +1 WS upgrades. They tear through just about any non-vehicle unit in the game. You can use standard Gaunts to screen them on the first turn and the Hormagaunts have guaranteed 2nd turn charge.

Tooled up hormagaunts are actually rather disgusting IMO.

Trasvi wrote:A little unrelated: on of my friends is playing with insanely fast nids by exploiting Synapse:

he starts with a winged tyrant and some gaunts in synapse range. moves the winged model as far forward as possible. Nids fall back 3D6" towards the tyrant. then they run, fleet, and assault, for a potential of 36" movement (more likely 20-24", but thats still a lot).

hopefully the rules will be revised so that it's better to have your nids IN synapse range again.

That "tactic" isn't quite as good as you might hope. Falling back units can't assault so the falling back unit only has a potential move of 4"-24" (3D6" fall back + D6" run) on a turn they are falling back. Worse still is at the start of the next turn if they are within synapse range they'll auto-regroup but doing so means they don't get their normal movement (only the 3" consolidation move). Yes they can still run & charge that turn but generally when you combine the two turns together you often don't end up with any extra movement gained at all.

Well now that I think about it I think that is a problem with the new rulebook. I think only the unit that took the wounds should have to take the saves not other units that may not have lost anyone. HOwever it also ensures that on a good charge the enemy is now out in the open with thier thumb up thier but so I can shoot them on my turn. SO I guess maybe it balances out.

yakface wrote:

Trasvi wrote:A little unrelated: on of my friends is playing with insanely fast nids by exploiting Synapse:
he starts with a winged tyrant and some gaunts in synapse range. moves the winged model as far forward as possible. Nids fall back 3D6" towards the tyrant. then they run, fleet, and assault, for a potential of 36" movement (more likely 20-24", but thats still a lot).
hopefully the rules will be revised so that it's better to have your nids IN synapse range again.

That "tactic" isn't quite as good as you might hope. Falling back units can't assault so the falling back unit only has a potential move of 4"-24" (3D6" fall back + D6" run) on a turn they are falling back. Worse still is at the start of the next turn if they are within synapse range they'll auto-regroup but doing so means they don't get their normal movement (only the 3" consolidation move). Yes they can still run & charge that turn but generally when you combine the two turns together you often don't end up with any extra movement gained at all.

So regrouping only happens at the start of the turn, before the movement phase? As in, a unit that is out of synapse range at the start of the turn can't rally after their fall back towards the Tyrant?
i need to slap that guy.

Just to be clear. Regroup tests are taken just before moving the unit that is falling back or when assaulted, not at the start at the turn that the Tyranid codex references too.

Trasvi wrote:

he starts with a winged tyrant and some gaunts in synapse range. moves the winged model as far forward as possible. Nids fall back 3D6" towards the tyrant. then they run, fleet, and assault, for a potential of 36" movement (more likely 20-24", but thats still a lot).

Just to clarify.
You make the Instinctive Behavior check at the beginning of the movement phase. So if the guants were in synapse range before the tyrant moved, then they auto pass. The check happens *before* the tyrant flies away.

If the tyrant is far away at the beginning of the turn, then the gaunts need to check. Assuming they fail, they 'fall back' *2d6* (Hormagaunts will fall back 3d6) towards the *nearest* synapse creature. They may Run or shoot the turn they are falling back. But they can't regroup until the beginning of *next* turn. So even if their 2d6 fall back move gets them into synapse range, they still can't regroup until next turn.

The turn they regroup, they can't move during the movement phase, only consolidate. (Though, they can then Run and/or Assault)

Sounds like you both should read over the Synapse and Fall Back rules.

Ok thats cool.
He was playing it that as soon as the tyrant moved out of range, they took a test- and as soon as they came back in range, they auto-consolidated.

obviously totally incorrect - we all thought it was stupidly good and couldnt be legal.

TY

I thought you auto-consolidate as soon as you come into a fearless bubble. I seem to recall a rule that states that, but obviously I would need to double-check.

anyway, how about this tactic: deepstrike the hive tyrant (is that legal? I need to see the rules for wings on tyrants). That happens at the starts of the movement phase, so do it before the instinctive behavior occurs. The gaunts run towards the deepstruck hive tyrant, auto consolidate when they get close enough, run, then assault.

It's too variable for my liking - that is a potential 3d6 +1d6 + charge move, and also requires that the gaunts not be in a bubble from something else, but perhaps nefarious tyrannid players could exploit it.

Yes, units with wings can deep strike

That is true; deep striking would make it work. However the tyrant would have to be the closest synapse unit, which means all your other synapse would need to be on the other side of the board (or not existing at all) and your entire first few turns would be wasted.

Antonin wrote:I thought you auto-consolidate as soon as you come into a fearless bubble. I seem to recall a rule that states that, but obviously I would need to double-check.

anyway, how about this tactic: deepstrike the hive tyrant (is that legal? I need to see the rules for wings on tyrants). That happens at the starts of the movement phase, so do it before the instinctive behavior occurs. The gaunts run towards the deepstruck hive tyrant, auto consolidate when they get close enough, run, then assault.

It's too variable for my liking - that is a potential 3d6 +1d6 + charge move, and also requires that the gaunts not be in a bubble from something else, but perhaps nefarious tyrannid players could exploit it.

Synapse does not provide Fearlessness to lesser creatures in Synapse range. If you read the Synapse rule carefully its pretty clear. The only thing that Synapse does for regrouping is to allow the unit to automatically pass its test to regroup ignoring the normal restrictions for regrouping.

It does not allow units to regroup at other points in the turn.

I can't wait for GW to update the rules properly, weed out all these cheating beardy players!
Instead of thinking of ways to bend the rules, couldn't they just think of legal ways to win? Silly!

Ill second that tooled up hormagaunts can be very good, although stealers do it better

And broken units always fail their morale checks... so shoot em up and make em fall back to their synapse creature again? Or would they automatically pass? Or would the immovable object and irresistable force cancel, and you just roll your morale check? :p

Breton wrote:And broken units always fail their morale checks... so shoot em up and make em fall back to their synapse creature again? Or would they automatically pass? Or would the immovable object and irresistable force cancel, and you just roll your morale check? :p

So wait,
Lets say that my nids failed thier morale check after being shot at and losing 25 casualties; they fall back. The next turn, they fail thier regroup test (assuming 50% or above and not within 6" of an enemy) and fall back a second time. Now in my opponents following shooting phase, the nids sustain 25% casualties for the second time; since they are already falling back; they automatically fail thier morale check and fall back again. Is this right?

Regardless, they fall back to the nearest synapse so if they were already close to one, you would just gather the models around the synapse (you wouldn't over shoot).

wyomingfox wrote:

Breton wrote:And broken units always fail their morale checks... so shoot em up and make em fall back to their synapse creature again? Or would they automatically pass? Or would the immovable object and irresistable force cancel, and you just roll your morale check? :p

So wait,
Lets say that my nids failed thier morale check after being shot at and losing 25 casualties; they fall back. The next turn, they fail thier regroup test (assuming 50% or above and not within 6" of an enemy) and fall back a second time. Now in my opponents following shooting phase, the nids sustain 25% casualties for the second time; since they are already falling back; they automatically fail thier morale check and fall back again. Is this right?

Regardless, they fall back to the nearest synapse so if they were already close to one, you would just gather the models around the synapse (you wouldn't over shoot).

One rule says that they automatically pass all leadership based tests, and the other rule says that they automatically fail morale checks while falling back. I think by the "codex wins over rulebook" argument means that they just pass the morale check and don't make another fall back move again but are still counted as falling back.

So the unit doesn't end up having to go hug the synapse creature because the nasty bipeds with guns shot at them.

3ff3ct wrote:I can't wait for GW to update the rules properly, weed out all these cheating beardy players!
Instead of thinking of ways to bend the rules, couldn't they just think of legal ways to win? Silly!

I think it is awesome to come up with a strategy that uses placement of forces, instead of simple deckbuilding... I mean armybuilding, to win. Naturally, if I was on the receiving end I would be unhappy, but so long as the tactic is legal (and that is a very essential point, you are right), I think an inventive strategy is great. Just as in Chess, forming a tactic that uses the rules should be the way to win.

Now, should GW write better rules? Yes. That's a side item, though.