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Since my SM army got a little whacked and rendered illegal with the new Codex, I'm thinking of turning traitor. So, I'm trying to find the best options for putting together a Tzeentch CSM army. I thinkered with Army builder, and got an army at 1850 that only included 2 HQs (DP and Lord), 3 troops (2 units of Marines w/ Rhinos and 1 1ksons), and 1 Elites (Termies w/ LR), everything marked Tzeentch.

I suspect that's a little light on models - the 3 troops are 10 each, the Termies 5 - for an effective Chaos army.

And thus I turn to the collection of wisdom that is Dakka for advice.

Here be the rules:

1) If possible, I'd like to favor firepower.
2) I haven't even looked at the 5th edition book, so please treat me like a six-year-old.
3) The Mark of Tzeentch is the only option - the only excuse for not having it on a unit is if the unit CAN'T take it.

I have bought nothing yet, so this can be started completely from scratch. Thanks guys!

Could you give us a little more detail on what you're planning on taking? For example, what's the configuration of the Lord? What powers are you planning for the Prince to take?

Are you looking for a troop heavy thousand sons?

Terminator heavy?

Lesser demons?

Sit back and shoot?

Rush and count on those bonus invulnerable saves?

Mixed bag?

Rather than a lord, I would look at a sorcerer... all those Tzeentch benefits for sorcs. Perhaps even burn the points and run Ahriman.

Well, I wasn't quite sure. Obviously, I'd like to balance theme and effectiveness as well as possible. Given the implacable nature of the Thousand Sons, I was thinking perhaps something that just moves across the board and wipes out whatever crosses its path.

The only thing I had given to the Lord was Deathscreamer. The DP had Warptime and Bolt of Change.

It would seem that a troop-heavy list with Termies and and Obliterators might be a way to go.

What are the pros and cons of Tzeentch-marked Marines vs Thousand Sons units?

If you want massive firepower, tzeentch isn't the way to go. not enough dakka. Slaanesh has some of the best weapons in the game, and doom sirens are now VERY effective. However, if you're definately going tzeentch, get 1k sons and terminators. all you really need; 4+ invulnerable saves on everything helps a lot. combi weapons = good, although bolt of change kinda... sucks. and to answer your question:
Pros of tzeentch marked marines:
-have 5+ invulnerable save
-retain the ability to take special weapons (plasma guns, lascannons etc)
-aren't quite as pricey, depending on the size (for 5 man squads, it really isn't worth it, for example, as they'll cost more than the ksons.)
-are slightly better in CC than Ksons.
Cons:
-Don't have a 4+ invulnerable save like their dusty bretheren.
-don't have AP3 bolters like their dusty bretheren.
-Don't have a force weapon available unlike their dusty bretheren.
-no psychic powers available either (unless memory fails me)
-are not fearless.
-aren't scary enough. (could be good or bad, depending on the situation. IE, might attract no attention, therefore securing you an objective, but might make them think they've got bigger fish to fry... IE, that land raider looks like a nice target...)
-don't have slow and purposeful, which, depending on your situation, can be good or bad again.

Overall, best plan is go with thousand sons. they're easier to defend with, and in general, nastier to deal with (especially for MEQ's). If you desperately need more dakka, get yourself some chosen with lots of special weapons. you can roast tyranids all day, if you want to. other than that, can't think of anything else. Gift of chaos is kinda funny sometimes. you might consider it if you play against guard sometimes, and those commisars would look so much better in a gelatinous mess... Good luck to yer.

Well, Cult Marines are better than normal CSM. A Lord can be instantly killed, better go with one or two winged DPs. Three TS squads in Rhinos are fine, but you need some fire support. Fluffy choices are Defilers but Obliterators are definitely the best you can get for the bucks.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, Cult Marines are better than normal CSM. A Lord can be instantly killed, better go with one or two winged DPs. Three TS squads in Rhinos are fine, but you need some fire support. Fluffy choices are Defilers but Obliterators are definitely the best you can get for the bucks.

Debateable, 2 Obliterators cost 150pts,1 defiler costs 150 pts. Yes it may take twice as much firepower to kill 2 oblits then 1 defiler but the oblits are much slower and not as flexible as far armament...wait, I mean in heavy large massed firepower with blasts. Best you get is a plasma cannon as opposed to the defiler witha battle cannon, havoc missile launcher and then can get twin lascannon as well. Then again take the battle cannon and two combat arms and the defiler has 5 base attacks in combat at strength 10, beating the 4 strength 8 base attacks on the 2 oblits, plus the defiler has fleet the oblits slow and purposeful. The point is, it gets down to preference IMHO.

Auretious Taak.

Auretious Taak wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, Cult Marines are better than normal CSM. A Lord can be instantly killed, better go with one or two winged DPs. Three TS squads in Rhinos are fine, but you need some fire support. Fluffy choices are Defilers but Obliterators are definitely the best you can get for the bucks.

Debateable, 2 Obliterators cost 150pts,1 defiler costs 150 pts. Yes it may take twice as much firepower to kill 2 oblits then 1 defiler but the oblits are much slower and not as flexible as far armament...wait, I mean in heavy large massed firepower with blasts. Best you get is a plasma cannon as opposed to the defiler witha battle cannon, havoc missile launcher and then can get twin lascannon as well. Then again take the battle cannon and two combat arms and the defiler has 5 base attacks in combat at strength 10, beating the 4 strength 8 base attacks on the 2 oblits, plus the defiler has fleet the oblits slow and purposeful. The point is, it gets down to preference IMHO.

Auretious Taak.

well first of all your defiler with a tl-lascannon and havoc launcher costs you 175 pts. for that you get one lascannon shot and a havoc launcher shot OR a battle cannont shot.

two oblits will get you TWO lascannon shot or TWO plasma cannon shots or TWO multimelta shots.

two small templates are better than one big template in 5th. play around and see what i mean.

so for less than the cost of your defiler i get a squad that is better at shooting tanks, MEQs, Horde and MCs. addbittedly you take a reduction in mobility but a defiler can still only move 6", so its not the speediest of vehicles.

you dont want either a defiler or oblits to be in combat so that fact that a defiler gets one extra attack if it takes not other guns (thus making it useless at killing tanks and MCs) is a moot point.

oblits are THE most flexible unit in the chaos codex. convert them from terminators and take as many as you can.

Can a non-fearless character (Sorceror) join a fearless unit (ksons)? If so, are they still fearless? Is he?

Here's an attempt:

Daemon Prince - 185
Wings, MoT, Doombolt, Warptime

Sorceror - 180
MoT, Plasma Pistol, Doombolt, Warptime

Thousand Sons - 277
9+Aspiring Sorceror w/ Doombolt

Thousand Sons - 277
9+Aspiring Sorceror w/ Doombolt

Thousand Sons - 277
9+Aspiring Sorceror w/ Doombolt

Obliterators - 150
x2

Chosen - 225
x4 w/ 1 Lightning Claw, 1 Plasma Pistol, 2 Meltaguns, Aspiring Champion w/ Powerfist

Terminators - 275
x4 w/ Reaper Autocannon, Powerfist, Chainfist, 2 single Lightning Claws, Champion with Pair of Lightning Claws

Total: 1846

Well, Obliterators are unfluffy in an TS army. I'd swap them for a Defiler although the Obliterators can be more effective.
The Chosen are debatable, too. Four guys that die like normal Marines are not worth the points. I'd drop them and beef up the Terminator squad, its a shock and awe unit.

The Sorcerer doesn't need a plasma pistol because he'll be using doombolt when he shoots. He should really have bolt of change though.

A little bit of advice goes along way. Since gw decieded to nerf the chaos and take away all the good deamons, I wouldnt just take all things with only 1 kind of mark. The direction i feel the codex is going is to have different marks on differnt squads, yah know mix it up. Untill they come out with a patron gods suppliment or something going all one kind is kinda limiting yourself to all the coolness that is chaos. The most effective ive found of the csm army are noise marines and plauge marines.

If the plan is to convert your existing "Loyalist" Marines to Tzeentch styled traitor Marines then go with normal CSM squads who have the Mark of Tzeentch rather than actual Thousand Sons and also maybe throw in a squad or two with different marks. With the current CSM codex you really don't get any benefit from playing a pure one mark army. GW felt no shame in shanking all the Chaos players who did theamed cult armies, you shouldn't feel any allegiance to the idea of playing them.

I rarely try to play a list with maximized brutality (although I'm liking the Dark Elf Monstrous Horde).

When it comes to Chaos, I'm just not a big fan of mixing Marks. I'm a Tzeentch guy, and I'd prefer to stick with an all-Tzeentch army.

I wasn't planning on converting my existing Marines, especially since I have a whole one unit of Tactical Marines - everything else is Fast Attack (Blessed Be the Warriors and Be Swift as the Wind meant I didn't need anything else). As I stated in the original post, I'm working completely from scratch.

All-tzeentch... How about some heavy weapon-toting havocs to rock the other fella's world? Stick an icon on tzeentch on them, sounds good to me

you can paint oblits up to look tzneetchy if you like. theyre to good not to have.

if you must take an all tzneetch list then your sorcerers need bolt of change to deal with tanks and MCs. as it stand you have precious little anti-tank.

i would drop the chosen for more oblits or more terminators. a 5 man squad dies far too easily at this points level, and it will really hurt considering they cost so much.

your terminators could do with an icon of tzneetch. the nature of terminators means that they are often out of cover, so an icon really helps them. a few extra bodies and some combi-meltas would also help. you dont really need to pay an extra 10pts for that champion, he doesnt really add anything to the squad.

i also dont like tzneetch sorcerers. for the chaos god thats all about the psychic powers, paying 30pts for a mark is prohibitively expensive. it means that a sorcerer and a similarly equipped demon prince cost the same, and demon princes are just better.

tzneetch lists suffer really badly in 5th. the proliferation of cover saves means that an invulnerable save and AP3 bolters are neigh useless. why pay for something you get for free or doesnt matter half the time. marks of tzneetch are only good on terminators, that spend a lot of time out in the open anyway, and demon princes where warptime+[psychic power] is really effective. what ever you do never ever ever give an icon of tzneetch to a unit that that will be standing and shooting (like havocs) they should be in cover anyway.