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The new edition mostly seems to make it much more challenging and frustrating to have a Tau army. Theoretically they'll make things better again with a new Tau codex; what do YOU think they'd need to change to make Tau armies better again? Or, do you think they aren't really so bad off as it is (maybe it's the players that have to change)?

I think Tau are fine. Thier codex is not old at all and many people still believe it is a strong one. In fact I am not sure but I think Tau won at the BIIG WAAGH!

i think it is how you player them and from the tau players i have seen they are still leathal

Sure, some people wouldn't change anything - how bad off any faction has it is all subjective I guess.

Some things make the "old way" of playing Tau more frustrating, like the line of sight/cover rules and the skimmer rules maybe. Above all I don't think Tau have very useful Troops - this was already true, but they're more required with the new objectives rules. I'm not sure what would be the best specific way to give Tau better Troops, though...

Just a few pieces of gear and the Ethereal abilities need updated to do anything useful.

Countermeasures - Need to work on any immobilized result, not just when glanced.

Pirhannas - Need a points redux to reflect their nerfing.

Command pods - Need to work like company banners for SM, 12" for regular and 18" for Shadowsun.

Target Locks - Need to work automatically, if they don't already.

Ion Burst Cannon - Special rules removed, regular rending added.

Fire Warriors - Make them buyable in packages like SM squads, with some goodies already included like grenades and a squad leader. 75 points for 6, 10 points for each additional member. Same with Pathfinders.

Pathfinders - Take away the silly DFish requirement, make it optional.

Kroot - More options from Kroot mercenaries, assault grenade option (or included), fix their woods/jungle ability to be more in line with the rest of the armies...or just give them "Stealth" and/or "Move through Cover" special rule.

All big skimmers (Sky Ray, Dfish, Hammerhead) - Fix inconsistencies with secondary weapons systems (wierd cost differences/freebies for each).

Disruption pod - should cost more (10 points?) for big vehicles (see above), keep same price for Pirhahnas.

Markerlights - Take out the difference between networked and normal to simplify. Bring costs in-line regardless of which way they go.

Drones - Re-write the rules a bit to clarify what they are and what they do.

Ethereals - Make then some kind of useful, don't care what they do.

Stealth suits as troops. Stealth suit were made to hold objectives. Give the Tau a troop that can hold objectives effectively and they're more or less good.

More ally aliens to add to the army list, races that have joined the greater good

USEFUL ally aliens, at that.

The Tau are in an odd spot...their rules still work fairly well, but I think they have lost some of their strength with the new ruleset. Not enough to warrant an immediate change, as there are many other codexes in more dire need. They can still be played, but they're weaker now overall.

The points above regarding firewarriors are most accurate, I think. They are poor troops, overall, and the necessity to take more of them is really annoying.

Give Kroot more options, make FW better, or have a new troop choice. Plus Devil fish need a point redux.

Tau are doing OK in tournaments so far which I think reflects the idea that they have always been a tricky army to use well, but work very well when handled properly, and so they attract better players.

I agree with most of what PolecatEZ posted, though there are a few things I would do differently.

Pathfinders would get almost no benefit from networking their Markerlights, and do not deserve a points increase for it. So if GW insist on simplifying the situation, just make all Markerlights Networked and keep the costs as they are.

I don't like the idea of bundling FWs with grenades, since it removes the option of saving the points and keeping your FWs out of assault range.

I would like to see either a slight cost reduction for FW and/or else raise their Rapid Fire range to 15 inches with pulse rifle. Admittedly this would make carbines less attractive, except for their Pinning ability.

Ethereals should give +1 Ld to all native Tau figures. This would compensate Tau for being about the only army in the game that can't easily get Ld9 or 10. Let the Ethereal to be bought as an add-on to a Troop unit rather than an HQ unit by himself, since many Tau armies want the extra HQ slot for another battlesuit and also he won’t work on Kroot, Drones or Vespids.

I think Kroot could be given grenades but they should not be made too good in assault. Maybe they could have cheaper EMP grenades (which are too expensive) to give them a bit of an anti-tank role. They are a pretty good cheap unit when woods are in the game.

Something needs to be done about Vespids. As far as I know no-one ever uses them. Three points reduction of cost would be the easiest thing.

do drones still have terible leadership? why do they even have leadership, should be a throw away fearless unit assualt speed bump.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Something needs to be done about Vespids. As far as I know no-one ever uses them. Three points reduction of cost would be the easiest thing.

Vespids need to go back to an original concept, radiation guns. S2 or S3, AP3 template. Massed hits will make up for lack of strength, it will make the vespid into both an anti horde and anti MEQ roll. It also wouldn't hurt to reduce their cost a little bit... 13-15 points sounds about right.

Tau are fine.

It's you, the general, that has the issue if you cannot win with this army.

I like the idea of making the Vespid guns template weapons. Even better, give them the option of a variety of weapons.

I think the main issue with Tau is with Devilfish and Troops choices. I play Farsight Enclave which means no Kroot, so I won't talk about them. Fire Warriors are great when they can sit and shoot or Fish of Fury. In my lists Devilfish are just too expensive. I am suit heavy so the only devilfish I have belongs to my Pathfinders and helps with my deep strikes. So in an objective based game I am forced to play over offensively. Its not a matter of just taking an objective from an enemy and sitting on my own. I could drop suits and take more Fire Warriors in Devilfish. In 1500 points I have a squad of 12 and 2 squads of 8. I can't divert more resources into troops and transport and maintain the style of army I play. Tau have great units, I find they are costed fairly for the most part but the new rules have changed the dynamics of gameplay in 5th edition and they don't suit the way Tau armies were designed in 4th.

DonkeyCannon:

From the anecdotal evidence you present us with, we can only draw the conclusion that the new rules have changed the dynamics of gameplay in 5th edition and they don't suit the way your Tau army was designed in 4th edition.

Adapt and overcome.

sure but that would mean not playing farsight enclave.

Or changing the way that your Farsight Enclave army is configured. Could you please post it in the Army List forum?

Make the Space Pope worth taking.

Give the Kroot the stealth rule

lower the price of Stealth suits (25 points each, same as Sternguard)

Maybe lower the cost of devilfish as well.

Give me some other unit as troops. (maybe a special charater that lets stealth suits count as troops, farsight lets Crisis suits count as troops)

Lower the cost for Vespids.

Make Disruptor pods cost more (Yes it needs to be done)

Do you think Games Workshop would be more likely to beef up Fire Warriors and Kroot at the current price, or leave their stats the same while making them cheaper? (I think I'd rather have them better for the same cost...)

Tau are organized and well equipped. I would predict they will keep the firewarriors the same cost and give them free grenades just like they did the marines. There isn't really too much they can lower them without changing the dynamic of the army.

Kroot give them a +1 cover save and move through cover in any terrain. Instead of a kroot shaper providing worthless armor to his kroot, why not just change it to crude frag grenades for +1 point. (LOL I can see two players setting up a friendly game and one reaches for buildings and the tau player reaching for trees... arguement ensues as they can't agree on the terrain.)

Make the carbine a more effective weapon for the Tau. Perhaps give it a ROF of 2 OR ROF 1 S 3 or 4 AP - Blast pinning. (The fluff of this is the supposed grenade launcher they have ) Albeit in the short-ranged setups of the 5th edition, that could be the death knell of the pulse rifle. Then again, GW would be selling a lot of Firewarrior boxes to get people to replace their rifle lines.

I agree, make the drones fearless and if you change the carbine as above only allow it the ROF 2 regular shots.

Stelek wrote:Tau are fine.

It's you, the general, that has the issue if you cannot win with this army.

I agree. Tau will get a new codex in the future at a point anyway

Yeah, I'm not expecting or requesting a new codex any time soon. I just figure, as a Tau player, that this is an interesting way to discuss the perceived strengths and weaknesses of the Tau rules.

why do people say that tau have one of the worst troop units in the game WTF. you have 30 in. s5 guns why are you whining

10 points for WS2, S3, T3 4+Sv and LD 7.

Thats why. Sisters (to use one example) have better LD, better armor, better BS, better WS and access to faith for 1 more point. The current firewarrior is overcosted vs survivability.

Having S5 guns is only good if you live long enough to shoot them. Firewarriors don't live long to any amount of sustained incoming fire.

I personally think the FW is worth about 8 points, but I'll happily live with them as they are and not depend on them to do much except grab and try to hold an objective on the last turn.

GIVE ME SOMETHING THAT CAN HOLD UP IN CC OR OVERWATCH!


Thats all we need something to bolster the FW.. Something that we fight off Drop Pod into line in one turn. I am sorry but we can not handle assault give us some kind of alien or something with 3 armor and a power weapon or rending or something. FW they can not handle anything, with the adding of everyone getting cover saves. It like giving fire warriors a gun and ask them to shot there own head. in 4th it was the ability to kill marine units at about 24 inches and do it well to hold off the tide. Now with cover saves and marines in groups of even 2 can whip a unit. Cover saves and this whole thing about mixing units to give each other 4+ in the open.. well point blaster on chin, aim up and fire....

In the fluff it speaks about how tech the tau is... Then explain to me why we do not have Overwatch!!.. One of the most advanced gun army in the game sets there and watches Fleeting Marines and other assault armies run up to us and hits us with out pulling the trigger? Umm, it talks about how the Tau are hunters... We are Hunter Cadres. We hunt.. not set there and watch the pretty Marine teleport in and hit us upon first turn.

YES!! we have the best basic weapon in the game. we have a Str 5 ap 4 gun that shoot 30. But with the rules of running and flank and everything else. Every game I played 30 in range mean nothing. So I can shoot far but when the chainsword is in my chest.. who cares?

Vespid Rock with there guns.. Marines hate them but they also can be defeated with 3 marines in hand to hand and there weapons are same range as a fleeting assault marine. They don't get to shoot. A ten man squad of Vespid with str 5 AP3 and a couple of marker lights thrown in as support to up there bs to five worked like butter in 4th. But with cover save there in the crapper. in 4th I used 29 Vespid as counter charge in my gun lines. Now.. there just like fire warrior they set there and watch chainsword rip them apart


Kroot. waste of points. They are cool but can't hold up in hand to hand with the new rules. Stathammer a 10 man squad of marines and 20 man unit of Kroot. most of the time Kroot will lose with LD 7 Marines will use there str 4 and power weapons vs t 3 and cause more wounds and kroot lose combat and when come to ld rolls ld 7 suck as a base!

Tau need something like Over Watch. The gun Line is dead in 5th untill there is something that can stop assault armies.

Farsight Army is only thinig I have come up with that may have a chance but only against MEQ. I have enough AP 3 Weapons and speed in suits and mech, but agains horde its dead.

There is no one list that can be stand up to all types of Warhammer. There is no balance army to hold back the tide!

Sorry for the rant.

Give firewarriors photon grenades for free.
Give Kroot the option to buy assault grenades.
Allow all devilfish (not just pathfinder devilfish) to outflank.
Make gun drone squads fearless.

There have been some pretty dire complaints here... not all of them valid if I may say so.

That said, there are a couple of things I'd like to see. This is just thinking out loud, and not at all playtested for any kind of balance.


The way I read GW's basic philosophy about Tau, they are supposed to have little in the way of CC, and be the best shooting army in nearly every respect. The reason I'm stating the obvious, is that I would not do a whole lot to "fix" Tau CC. Kroot should at best be mediocre and/or flawed in that regard. Instead, I would make their shooting have more options, and be able to give them a lot of flexibility in how they fight.

An example of this would be the following change to carbines: If carbine shots force a pinning test, unless the unit is pinned or goes to ground regardless of any leadership factors or fearlessness then the number of savable wounds suffered by the target unit doubles. The idea being that the grenade launchers on the carbine volleys are so intense, that it gives its victims a hard choice.

This kind of change would really give Tau carbines a very useful role... namely slowing the enemy. Actually, I believe that was their inteded role, but it doesn't seem very good at it these days for one reason or another. Again, not thought all the way through, but interesting.

Some fun things I've been noodling:

Railguns:
-Should cause instant death regardless of toughness, or at least cause two wounds. This would really help out vs. nidzilla. Immunity to instant death would not be circumvented by this rule; and/or
-Can only pen

Vespid:
As is, I believe they might need a point reduction. Alternatively an increase in range or rate of fire of the neutron blaster (or making it 24" rapid fire) would make them more desirable. Maybe they should be able to move in the assault phase (full 12") if they don't move in the movement phase. That would make them very interesting. Drop fleet

XV8's: I just wanna see some new guns & support systems. We don't really need 'em, but I just think it'd be cool

Kroot should probably have 5+ armor. That wouldn't be game breaking, and would make me like them a lot more. Points could be increased slightly to compensate.

I have more, but have to go. Thoughts? Flames?

Rmeju

we could talk for hours and things that could be added in, so I'll try to keep to the current codex vs. new additions.

-Making railguns any better than they already are might be overkill. Maaaaaybe warrant giving broadsides submunitions, but I have a feeling that would be significantly unbalanced. It just frankly irks me that the army only has 2 blast weapons (if I'm remembering correctly), one of which is essentially commander-only.

-Vespid could virtually be scrapped and redone. They're conceptually super snazzy, but poor in execution, even in the edition they were designed for.

-Only change Kroot need is to swap their useless 4e junk rules for Stealth and Move Through Cover. Done. Praying for your table's organizer to put forests on the board so your kroot don't explode is dumb. Only 2 units still benefit from specific 'kinds' of terrain (kroot and chimeras), and the chimera rule is going to go I'll wager.

-Please, GW, make Krootox and Shapers worth taking! Krootox imo should at least be relentless, and given a decent armour save to represent their ox like resiliency. I said armour over toughness increases since increased toughness would do nothing at all (majority toughness rules), and the low toughness maintains the instant death aspect of the kroot getting blown away while the krootox wanders off untouched. Shapers, I'm sort of at a loss. Make them stronger CC combatants or cut their cost? I really like their support-based aspect, which should be emphasized a little better than Ld8 and a 6+ save. Besides, paying out the nose for a 6+ save is slowed. Even though I'm biased, I'd like to see the multi-racial aspect of the Tau emphasized more. and by 'mutli-racial' I mean an army of backwater aliens, virtually enslaved by the Tau. Yes, I don't buy into the goody goody image the Tau PR machine has churned out . They're all dirty cold-blooded space-communists if you ask me! Besides, their shiny, selfless "we love everyone for the Greater Good" vibe is so unfitting for the "lulz we're all badass jerks" future of 40k. GW needs to play up their cold, calculating, "join us or die, and probably still die anyway" Borg-y style. That's just me of course.

Come to think of it, a third non-Tau race addition could be neat. Or properly implement converted humans. Letting us use their heavy weapons would be cool, though we don't really need more boring static firepower.

-Crisis are fine atm, its a sad fact that when you give a unit so many options, the only ones worth taking become apparent quickly and the unit loses most of it's apparent variety.

-I wouldn't say Fire Warriors are bad right now, by any stretch. I like the free photon grenades though, that makes sense to me. Bare minimum, Pathfinders should have both 'nades for free though I don't frankly see the EMPs getting much use, it fits the nature of the pathfinders. 'finders with Stealth would be nice, and completely unreasonable

-Seekers should be AP1. 10 points=rediculous for a krak missile. Hell, I'd take a hunter-killer over a seeker these days, at least you're not 'wasting' markerlights on them. Don't get me wrong, I really want to use seekers, particularly for side and rear shots with my Devilfish and Piranha. I can just never justify it. AP1 or 5pt cost would be the way to go imo. This would turn Skyrays into glorified Exorcists, but that's ok. Speaking of which a 3rd battle tank variant would be wicked, maybe something anti-infantry with, say, a tank-sized Burst Cannon-equivalent, maybe rending? I think IA had something similar, but they all had normal boring Crisis suit statlines on their guns. Ooh, an actual heavy gun drone squadron would be sweet. Though I guess that's all a Crisis suit is

-someone mentioned overwatch and droppod armies. Here's a solution, two birds with one stone! Give the Ethereals the same power Inquisitor retinue Mystics have, and BLAM. Ethereals aren't gak anymore, and Tau don't get smashed to hell by drop pods anymore.


Overall, the army is still in fantastic shape for 5th ed, and we should neither need nor expect a new codex any time soon. But, like all codices, there are far too many entries I want to use in concept that in practice just don't cut it.