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Well,

That's an interesting statblock. Part of the reason I tried to go with a "cheaper is better" solution to the fcw problem is because giving them opportunities to get things like tank hunters, the grenade varients and stealth, etc. is you start stepping on the toes of other units. If firewarriors can get stealth and scout, (and a bonus markerlight option, as indicated by one of the missions), what is a pathfinder squad except a firewarrior squad with bs 4 (presumably), and markerlights on every man - why not take the fcw warriors everytime?

pricing and weapon opt changes: 70 seems reasonable once you make carbines assult 2, which brings them from a mildly overrated unit to a pretty dangerous threat in terms of killing power. making carbines the default gun is something I would have never thought of, and seems remarkably innovative and fluffy, even if it would probably force Gw to re-do all it's tau artwork in the next codex. 15 point marker drones is just rational.

One shas’ui may be upgraded further upgraded to a Shas’vre for 5pts, if this is done, any number of models can be upgraded to Shas’ui for 2pts/model. In addition, any Fire Warrior teams including a Shas’vre becomes an Elite selection.
One Shas’vre may be upgraded further upgraded to a Shas’el for 25pts, if this is done, any number of Shas’ui can be upgraded to Shas’vre for 1pt/model. The Shas'el gains the 'Cadre Specialization' special rule. In addition, any Fire Warrior team including a Shas’el becomes an HQ selection.

This strikes me as shoddy. who is going to seriously take a bs4 fwc team as a elites choice? I can understand a HQ choice, kinda, but elites? people will intentionally eat into their elite slots for this? really? The simple fcw/bodyguard dichotomy from my stat block worked better I think.

Missions: clearly modeled on the doctrines of imperial guard vets (more so than the missions of storm-troopers), these are kind of a mixed bag. I'm not going to critique pricing just yet.

-Fire Support:

Reasonable in every way, and pulse pistols is nice for desperate situation. I'm rusty on this, but wouldn't pulse pistols give them +1A?

-Recon:

This ability makes kroot (and presumably, pathfinders, eventually) kinda redundant, since the above two are the units I mentally associate with sneaking around and out-flanking, not the guys with carapace armor and massive shoulder-pads. But...It's not all bad; outflanking firewarriors with carbines and assault-2 carbines might actually be worth taking in a offensive capacity again, but you'd have to rewrite pathfinder and kroot statlines before I could swallow it as not making the other units useless. (kroot could still be distinguished by borrowing the "signature" evolution upgrades from the old kroot mercenary army)

-Demolitions: EMP Grenades and Tank Hunters +30pts

I'm obviously going to be biased, since this steps on the toes of the special character ideas I had, but this strikes me as being a lot like the demolitions veteran doctrine - kinda interesting, but rarely taken. tank hunters on anti-infantry heavy-bolteresque unit is a mild bonus, but it's not really a selling point. It could be kept as a viable ability, but it would probably have to be one of the cheaper one's.

-Target Designation: Marklights +30pts

I know you probably didn't flesh this one out, but this has the same issues as the recon choice above, it steps on the unit roles of other units. Why take pathfinders when I can take FW with target designation? Why take kroot when I can outflank with a filled-up-dumb fish and fish-of-fury you? I would like to try to avoid the sort of insane pendulum swings GW is infamous for.

BTW, how did you intend to make that "uber" 0-1 choice of them really good? Just curious.

-Assault: Concussion Assault Grenades +20pts
-Suppression: Adhesive Assault Grenades +20pts

Is there any reason at all these could not simply be squad upgrades? I guess it would solve issues with mixed-weapon units, since you wouldn't be able to pick fancy carbine add-ons without a mission, but this strikes me as totally unnecessary as a "mission". Make them squad options; and if they seem too good, limit them to a bodyguard squad.

"The entire unit may take an Orca/Manta Insertion for 20pts. "

a deep-strike option? Why isn't this a mission? it seems like an incredibly awesome idea, and representative of the entire "kinda-sorta-elite" feel alot of people want the tau to have. (I'd give them deep strike and skilled riders to represent the relative safety of tau air-drop technologies.) Besides, ever since guard lost their drop-troops doctrine, it would be nice to have an army that could really play that way again.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:making carbines the default gun is something I would have never thought of, and seems remarkably innovative and fluffy, even if it would probably force Gw to re-do all it's tau artwork in the next codex.

The Tau Empire front cover is all carbines. It's actually what gave me the idea.

One shas’ui may be upgraded further upgraded to a Shas’vre for 5pts, if this is done, any number of models can be upgraded to Shas’ui for 2pts/model. In addition, any Fire Warrior teams including a Shas’vre becomes an Elite selection.
One Shas’vre may be upgraded further upgraded to a Shas’el for 25pts, if this is done, any number of Shas’ui can be upgraded to Shas’vre for 1pt/model. The Shas'el gains the 'Cadre Specialization' special rule. In addition, any Fire Warrior team including a Shas’el becomes an HQ selection.

This strikes me as shoddy. who is going to seriously take a bs4 fwc team as a elites choice? I can understand a HQ choice, kinda, but elites? really? The simple fcw/bodyguard dichotomy from my stat block worked better I think.

This mainly stemmed from a side attempt to minimize the number of different entrys I'd have to write. I'm not really sure why anyone would want to do that, but I thought I'd give the option.

Missions: clearly modeled on the doctrines of imperial guard vets (more so than the missions of storm-troopers), these are kind of a mixed bag. I'm not going to critique pricing just yet.

-Fire Support:

reasonable. I'm rusty on this, but wouldn't pulse pistols give them +1A?

Nope, as they don't have CCW, so no two weapons. The pistol is so they'd have something to fire if they move. Its a Mission so they can't double it with something else.

-Recon:

This ability makes kroot (and presumably, pathfinders, eventually) kinda redundant, since the above too are the units I mentally associate with sneaking around and out-flanking, not the guys with big shoulder-pads. It's not all bad; outflanking firewarriors with carbines and assult-2 carbines might actually be worth taking in a offensive capacity again, but you'd have to rewrite pathfinder and kroot statlines before I could swallow it as not making the other units useless.

This one I just kind of tossed in. There had been some ideas thrown around about super-outflank tau armies, which I kind of liked. Nope these skills wouldn't be passed on to a transport, so they'd have to come on on foot.

-Demolitions: EMP Grenades and Tank Hunters +30pts

I'm obviously going to be biased, since this steps on the toes of the Sc ideas I had, but this strikes me as being a lot like the demolitions veteran doctrine - kinda interesting, but rarely taken. tank hunters on anti-infantry heavy-bolteresque unit is a mild bonus, but it's not really a selling point. It seems overly expensive and the unit most likely to benefit can's shoot the tanks from long range. Still it could be kept as a viable ability, but it would probably have to be cheaper.

Yeah, it does step on the does of that SC, that point aside, Tank hunters gives them a very good chance to take down AV10, mild chance to take down AV11, and could Immobalize AV12, which pritty much covers all transports. Plus it seemed like a reasonable thing to come with the EMP grenades, which is where this mission started. Based really on the Assault on the Airfield in the Taros Campaign.

-Target Designation: Marklights +30pts

I know you probably didn't flesh this one out, but this has the same issues as the recon choice above, it steps on the unit roles of other units. Why take pathfinders when I can take FW with target designation? why take kroot when I can outflank with a filled-up-dumb fish and fish-of-fury you? I would like to try to avoid the sort of insane pendulum swings GW is infamous for.

BTW, how did you intend to make that "uber" 0-1 choice of them really good? Just curious.

I fully agree with the pendulum swings, in short, I wouldn't want to put a unit in the book not worth taking. Anyway, this one was added in to make up for the 0-1 of the pathfinders. I see a lot of lists with 2 pathfinder squads, and I wanted to make sure there was still ways to get marklights on if you had already used, or didn't want to take pathfinders. The 'uber' pathfinders I was intending to use a deployment similar to the one granted by the pathfinder Apoc Datasheet. Basically, in a movement phase, they appear on the board and act as normal, and their 8-tau devilfish grants them stealth-field generator and everyone else some kind of 'land where I want to' bonus for deep strikers. Based on that Apoc sheet and the stories describing the first you know there are pathfinders around, is when the red dot appears on the side of your tank. I was also thinking of taking them out of the FOC, as they arn't really part of the Cadre (which the foc represents), and don't really fit as elite or fast attack.

-Assault: Concussion Assault Grenades +20pts
-Suppression: Adhesive Assault Grenades +20pts

Is there any reason at all these could not simply be squad upgrades? I guess it would solve issues with mixed-weapon units, since you wouldn't be able to pick fancy carbine add-ons without a mission, but this strikes me as totally unnecessary. Make them squad options; and if they seem too good, limit them to a bodyguard squad.

These were actually the first two missions I came up with. They were designed specifically so they couldn't be mixed. Prevents having to roll everything separately, keeps the unified by squad appearance, and seemed like a good idea at the time, though it might not be necessary.

"The entire unit may take an Orca/Manta Insertion for 20pts. "

a deep-strike option? Why isn't this a mission? it seems like an incredibly awesome idea, and representive of the entire "kinda-sorta-elite" feel alot of people want the tau to have. (I'd give them deep strike and skilled riders to represent the relative safety of tau air-drop technologies.)

It isn't a mission so it could be taken with the other missions. I didn't call it Deep strike because I was intending it's effects to depend on the Shas'ui (if taken) for outflank, infiltrate, deepstrike etc. But yes, it was there to give the troops the semi-elite feel, as well as repersent the Tau's superior logistics.

I admit I haven't read the last 28 pages, but this seems good discussion. I'll throw my 2c in here.

I think: Fire warriors should get Photons. They also need to be more shootier. 15" rapid fire range would be nice... I don't think all Carbine armed: that would require a sprue redesign, not to mention my entire army would need to be rebuilt.
Kroot should get frags, flamers, stealth, and move through cover.
Drones should get special weapons.

Vespids should get better.
Crisis should get cheaper, and some kind of CC weapon (powerfist). They're our only access to decent weaponry and they die as easily as space marines.
Markerlights should get more mobile.
Sniper teams need sniper. Stealth teams need stealth.

Most of all, I think we need some kind of uber unit combination. A lot of armies have a SCARY unit. Something you don't want to face, but you know you're going to because they're awesome. Tau get... more railguns?

I saw (quite a while back, on p8 or something) an idea for an anti-infantry, S5 Ap4 Heavy 20 Rending infantry support tank. I think that would be awesome.

I'd also really like to see kroot with Dual Pistols, and Shas'O on foot (either infantry commanders or snipers) but that is dreaming

Trasvi wrote:I admit I haven't read the last 28 pages, but this seems good discussion. I'll throw my 2c in here.

I think: Fire warriors should get Photons. They also need to be more shootier. 15" rapid fire range would be nice... I don't think all Carbine armed: that would require a sprue redesign, not to mention my entire army would need to be rebuilt.

Which is part of the point; any serious jump to a new edition by GW, for any army, is going to "necessitate" buying new stuff ( how many guard players do you think owned tons (re: enough to make a psyker battle squad)of sanctioned psykers in 4th ed? I'm willing to bet not many.

carbines makes the army better; and would force people to buy more fw sprues. in so far as fw's are one of my favorite units to construct, I don't mind this. besides, you could just switch out to rifles...

That is, after all, the not so secret point of codex updates, to get people to buy more models. But more to the point, at least with my thoughts, I was trying not to let existance or nessesity of models keep me from what I felt made more sense.

Kroot should get frags, flamers, stealth, and move through cover.

I'm not sure they really do. They could definoutly use Frags, but i'm not sure it fits with them, and more importantly, i'm not sure they could be kept as cheap as they are if they had such weaponry.

Drones should get special weapons. Vespids should get better.

Sure, Or just include the Heavy Gun Drones, which are basicly Crisis Suits in drone form.

Crisis should get cheaper, and some kind of CC weapon (powerfist). They're our only access to decent weaponry and they die as easily as space marines.

The suits themselves are plenty cheap, I think, some of their weapons could get cheaper. Alternitivly, they could use BS4 standard. And to be exact, they die as easily as 2 space marines, and generaly cost as much as.. well, 1.5 simmilarly equipped space marines. I compleatly diagree with the power-fist though. Tau don't need close combat, Shouldn't have close combat, and specail close combat weapons just don't make sense for them.

Markerlights should get more mobile.

More accurately, I think, Moble marklights need to be cheaper. Notably the Tetra or a cheaper Marker-drone that continues to be Jetpack Infantry.

Sniper teams need sniper. Stealth teams need stealth.

Sniper isn't all that for sniper teams, it would only chance something if you roll a 6 to wound when shooting terminators, or for taking out vehicles. And really, there's no reason for it to be busting up land raiders. Stealth teams having stealth would be nice though.

Most of all, I think we need some kind of uber unit combination. A lot of armies have a SCARY unit. Something you don't want to face, but you know you're going to because they're awesome. Tau get... more railguns?

Translation: We need a broken unit like everyone else! If this is going to be anything, I think it falls to the pathfinders. (see idea above). But there's nothing in the tau fluff or design to support a single super-unit. Much of the point of the army is that the sum is greater then it's parts.

I have had a “eureka” moment.

My basic issue with firewarriors is they are really only good against infantry. Unfortunately, the “homogenius” nature of firewarriors makes it far too jarring an idea to start handing out ion cannons to them.

I first started by suggesting that we make them dirt cheap, since they aren’t going to be much use anyways. I was brought to my senses by Mars here. (it’s particularly stupid since a unit could in theory do the same thing to some extent with gun drones anyways, which is fluffier to begin with).

Mar suggested among other things, “missions”. But I felt not all of them were useful or fluffy. But they could be refined. But even then, a lot of these were basically “extra wargear” or “alternate deploymention” options as far as rules went. None of them made them particularly better against anything except infantry, however.

But… I have figured a solution that is fluffy as hell, and that fits within our existing frame work of tau, and that’s markerlights.

We just need to add one little thing to them.

Right now, lights, let you, amoung other things, increase BS (good), decrease cover saves (better), reduce ld for pinning (useless; and honestly not necessary), ignore night fight (should probably be “automatic” on any light hit) or fire a seeker missile (needs serious reworking).

Allow us to add to this list more thing: (these rules are just an example of what I’m getting at)

“Add one to a unit’s damage rolls vs. vehicles. (up to a max of +2 per unit). You may not increase the effective S of a unit’s firepower beyond s8 (or s9 or whatever playtesting deemed “balanced”, just for example) in this manner.”

suddenly, our firewarriors go from overspecialized unit with glaring weaknesses to… a VERY GOOD unit, albeit with glaring weaknesses, assuming you have markerlights around.

Basically, once you get 3-4 markerlights hits on say, a chimera, a 12 man squad of firewarriors could, using this, start pelting it with (effectively) s7 shots at bs4. A fireknife team could blast a transport with a bunch of s8 ( or s8/s9 shots), which would be extremely dangerous. Right now, no one takes anything except minimum sized fw squads in devilfish; because of they are only useful against infantry – but introduce this and suddenly people would start using fish of fury again, ESPECIALLY if it was combined with assault 2 carbines.

But more to the point, this allows the tau to in one fell swoop, deal with 3 major issues:

1: usefulness of firewarriors (they can SERIOUSLY hunt transports now)
2: usefulness of markerlights (they would be worth every point spent on them now)
3: tau’s issues with killing av 13-14 at long range.

This last one may seem odd, but it’s a legitimate issue – most armies can get lascannons (or a rough equivilant) embedded pretty much any where – embedded in infantry squads, (pretty much any imperial army ever) on transports (razorbacks, exorcists), or other misc. choices (dreds, sentinels, etc.)

Tau, by contrast,have one long range gun that can realistically threaten av14 at long range, the railgun they can get it one… two units. Both are in heavy support and both are expensive as hell. For everything else, tau needs to use meltaguns (not exactly the best idea for a army that wants to stay out of assault range), or missiles pods,which, at s7, basically means their most readily available “anti-tank” is a autocannon; which is what most other armies would call “anti-transports”.

By making markerlights make anti-tanks guns more dangerous, you allow tau to become far far more dangerous at long range, which is exactly what they need. As it stands, they are in dire need of guns that hurt higher av without getting right on top of the target in question.

The second effect of this, is of course, to make markerlights much more valuable; skyrays w/ target arrays would become viable heavy support options; as instead of buying a railhead for it’s gun, you could by the skyray and use it to allow the nearby deathrain team to pelt things at s8.

Finally, one last note, but you might be saying that “wait, what about seeker missiles? Aren’t they anti-tank for markerlight already?” yes and no.

Yes, in theory, it can function as a anti-tank weapon… if it weren’t that you’d likely need a markerlight and a hard-wired target lock to keep the fw’s firing it from wasting the rest of the unit’s shots, (20 points!), and then you need to pay for the missiles (20 more points!), and then each missile is one shot only, and need to be mounted on a tank, and are wasted if the tank dies, and to lastly, the firer is typically bs3.

And to add insult to injury, cover saves, as with anyother long range gun, will allow the targeted tank to ignore it half the time unless you sacrifice other markerlights (and thus seeker shots) to reduce cover, and even if this all goes off, you can roll a 1 to hit with the missile; which is madness when this means you have two chances to miss, effectively making a damned hunter-killer missile a better choice than this thing.

By contrast, a death rain team with a +1 bonus to pen has a pretty good chance of hitting on it’s own, and would be realistically able to now “really” hurt av12 or to potentially hurt av13. and a fw team? With just 2-3 lights they would have a much better chance at halting the wave serpent (full of fire dragons) that’s hurtling towards your lines at 24’’ a turn.

Point is, they need reworking. Under the new system, a pathfinder team could, (assuming four hits from the current incarnation of the unit with 8 members) after getting 4 markerlight hits, instead of firing a mildly useless swarm of missiles, (4 missiles!- wait, not 4, just 3, since I rolled a one. Ok, 3 missiles – ok, only 1 penned… ok, - oh, wait, cover save. Darn…) could instead fire one missile (one markerlight), up it’s pen by one (one light), and then reduce the target’s cover by 2. (2 lights.) so it’s a s9 hit that you only get 6+ cover from, to which I say, “not bad”. But it’s hardly a “real” system for giving infantry squads versatility – it needs a serious overhaul.

So, at some point, I’m going to write up more specific rules on how this would work. Oh, and the mission thing for firewarriors?

How about this: (point values are lower than vet doctrines because at 10 points a model you are already partially paying the cost of these in the unit’s cost.)

Manta insertion (10 points) – these firewarriors are training to eventually become battlesuit pilots, and use high-altitude manta insertion to prepare for this. The squad may deep strike. They have the “skilled rider” USR for the turn they deep strike only.

Scouts (10 points) – these firewarriors are training to become pathfinders, and are learning the maneuvering weapon skills that will allow them to lead cadres someday. The unit has Scout and Move-Though-Cover USR’s. the unit may take X rail-rifles at Y points.

Fire-support (10 points) – these firewarriors are training to become dedicated firewarrior squad leaders, bodyguards, and eventually, broadside pilots, and have honed their aim to reflect this. Any model with a pulse rifle may fire it as a heavy 2 weapon. Any model with a carbine may take suppression grenades (units hit moves as in difficult terrain)
At X points a model.

You know, that's quite an interesting idea. I'm not sure I agree with it, but it's got merit (particularly in relation to the Deathrain suits etc.)

You are certenly right that the Tau are missing weapons in the range most armies have covered by heavy weaponry. The vast majority of suit weapons fill the 'special weapon' catagory, then jump to tank guns, or the support level 'double railgun'. This is definoutly an annoying gap, and one that would quite nice to fill.

How ever, unlike you, I don't see a problem with the Fire Warriors being Anti-infantry. While it is true that most basic troops can get AV weaponry, I've almost never seen anyone use any except the melta or occationaly combat-squad Marines. Boyz, Sisters, IG, chaos, etc all generaly use special weapons or anti-infantry heavies. So while I agree that we need additional light-antitank, I'm not sure the Fire Warrior squad needs to be where it comes from (at least not primarly).

That being said, I think your on to something with the marklight itself. The Marklight is uniquely Tau, and if used right, really could be the 'uber' weapon and the Tau's savior. And this could be as simple of a change as giving the Shas'ui a free networked-marklight (at bs 4). (perhaps even an assualt-marklight) Now there's a 2/3 chance the FW squad he's with will become BS4, or -1 cover save, or -1 ld vs. pinning. That its self does alot for the FW's value.

I also agree that something needs to be done with the seeker missiles. Particularly at 10pts a piece, they just aren't cost effective. However, looking at the fluff, seeker missiles arn't usualy right there, but rather fired from kilometers away, or from nearby aircraft. It might make more sense, then if "seeker missile" wasn't actualy something on the board.

Change the rule to: Launch a Seeker Missile - [Fluff] Target takes a Str 8 AP 3 hit.

This essentialy makes all marklights usable as krakmissile launchers. No limit, no additional chance to miss, etc. Have the direction of the strike eather come from the Marker's position, or always strike side armor, depending on how effective you want them to become.

It may also be possable to add alternitive Seeker Missiles, so as to give some additional flexablity all these groups. A Frag-missle equivilent, or a Heavy Bolter like MERV missile, or even a plasma missile. Eather bought as one shots, or as (expensive) army upgrades, these could add a lot of flexablity. It would also make Marklight-armed battlesuits a viable & interesting option.

To continue on this theme, one could also use marklights as the 'special' weapon in the squad. IE, 2 shas'la may be upgraded to take marklights for X pts.

Well, I was thinking that shas'la in a squad could still become "team leaders" with access to wargear even though there was already a shas'ui in the squad. I was thinking that it would be at a 1 in 4 limit, with the shas'ui counting as a team leader already.

Well, they'd need a different name, as they're not exactly leading. Heading in the direction of a 5ed codex, though, the idea of access to a wargear list is pritty much gone anyway. It's more like 'for every 4 Shas'la added, one may select from this list of upgrades'

What do you think of the "not on the board' seekers?

Honestly, I kinda dislike it. it would basically mean that the unassuming squad of pathfinders would no longer be the "support" unit and more the "shoot you with a bunch of magically appearing missiles that I don't need to represent with a model" unit. they would no longer markerlight, they'd just become a big s8 ap3 heavy weapon team that would somehow out-shoot deathrain suits. honestly, I defend my idea; as it works better. Like I said, seekers need to be slightly reworked (like automatically hitting, after a light is expended it fire it). the thing you're suggesting sounds more like a tau-specific apoc asset.

Anyways, here is my "take-two" on the subject of the tau.

Tau army special rules:

+++

Bonding- any bonded unit may regroup under 50%.

+++

Markerlights:

[Fluff]

All markerlights are considered heavy 36’’ weapons. Each hit from a markerlight conveys a token on the hit unit.

For each token hit on the unit you may do any of the following. Note that units may not benefit from their own markerlight hits.

+Increase the unit’s BS by 1 to a maximum of BS5

+Reduce the target’s cover save by 1. This may be used to completely remove a unit’s cover save. You may not use this to improve the bs of another markerlight.

+Inflict a -2 penalty to the target’s ld for the purposes of leadership tests to fall back from shooting, etc. this penalty lasts until the end of the end of the tau player’s turn. (so you can force units to fall back, that kind of thing.) Furthermore, this penalty does not affect leadership for the purposes of combat resolution during the assault phase. (Basically, the tau’s answer to weaken resolve.)

+ grant a +1 bonus to pen or glance a vehicle. (i.e. a firewarrior unit firing with a +1 bonus would treat their pulse rifles/carbines as s6 instead of s5 for purpose of damageing vehicles.) This is limited to a 2+ bonus per unit, and no weapon may gain an effective strength higher than s8 in this manner.

+ fire a seeker missile. The missile is a s8 ap3 hit with unlimited range from a vehicle carrying one. The missile hits automatically; resolve shooting as normal there after. The missile may benefit from markerlight hits as noted above.

Additionally, any unit firing on a target unit with the benefit of a markerlight bonus ignores night fight rolls (but not those granted by wargear, such as grey knight “shrouding”, elder “veil of tears” or tau “stealth fields”).

Special markerlights:

Underslung – these are highly advanced models of markerlight that are typically issue to elite bodyguards and pathfinder teams. Any model armed with a underslung markerlight may choose to fire it as an assault 12’’ weapon instead of a 36’’ heavy weapon.

Networked – the markerlights are intergrated into a sophisticated series of targeting arrays that streamlines the data the markerlight gives. This has several effects. First, all networked markerlights are considered “twin-linked.” Secondly, a networked markerlight may benefit the unit that is firing it. finally, if a networked markerlight is used to fire a seeker missile, you may fire 2 missiles per hit instead of the typical single missile.

+++

Drones: drones are expendable constructs made by the earth cast to aid the tau in both civilian and military situations. Since drones can function both as wargear or units, 2 sepeate listings are here:

As wargear: a drone taken as wargear is in all respects, another member of the unit, except that

A: drones removed as casualties never count towards 25% casualties, or towards losing combat in assault.

B: the statline of a drone depends on it’s controlling model (which is the one with the drone controller).

C: if the drones’ controller is killed, the drones are removed.

Finally, independent characters may take drones, but still count as independent characters, able to join and leave units; however for all other purposes, the drones are effectively a retinue; that is to say the IC and the drones are only one KP, and you may not choose to “pick out” and direct attacks at a IC instead of his drones in assault (however, if the IC is in a larger unit, then you can choose to target him AND his drones.

As units: any units with the template “drone” are fearless; drones for better or worse, are expendable, and their primitive programming does not really allow them to understand complex ideas like “fear” or “self-preservation.” While this means that they are hard to deter with shooting, it also means they may keep fighting in a hopeless situation.

+++

FIREWARRIORS:
Statline: as before, except the squad has ld8 from the built in shas’ui. Shas’ui has bs4; everyone else is bs3 as usual.

Troop Choice
Composition: 5 Firewarrior + 1 shas’ui.
70 points (10x5 + 20 for shas’ui. Bonding/Photons are freebies)
Special Rules: Bonding, specializations
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, bonding knife, photon grenades.
[Pulse Rifle]
(as codex)

Options:
The squad may take up to 6 additional members for 10 points each.

One in four firewarriors may be upgraded to a “team leader”, with access to the armory.
Note that the shas’ui is always considered a team leader (a maxed out unit could have 2 team leaders and shas’ui max, btw).

Any firewarrior may exchange his pulse rifle for a pulse carbine at no additional cost.

Shas’ui / team leaders may takes drones-
Gun drones: 8
Shield drones: 10
Marker drones: 15

Shas’ui / team leader may take markerlights for 10 points each, or a underslung markerlight for 15 points each. They may also take multi-trackers and/or target locks for 10 and 5 points respectively.

The squad may take a devilfish as usual.

The squad can have EMP grenades for 1 point a model.

Specializations: any given firewarrior squad may take one specialization for 10 points.

Manta insertion (10 points) – these firewarriors are training to eventually become battlesuit pilots, and use high-altitude manta insertion to prepare for this. The squad may deep strike. They have the “skilled rider” USR for the turn they deep strike only.

Scouts (10 points) – these firewarriors are training to become pathfinders, and are learning the maneuvering weapon skills that will allow them to lead cadres someday. The unit has Scout and Move-Though-Cover USR’s. the unit may take 3 rail-rifles at 10 points.

Fire-support (10 points) – these firewarriors are training to become dedicated firewarrior squad leaders, bodyguards, and eventually, broadside pilots, and have honed their aim to reflect this. Any model with a pulse rifle may fire it as a heavy 2 weapon. Any model with a carbine may take suppression grenades (units hit moves as in difficult terrain) At 2 points a model.

+++

Aun’shi
One firewarrior squad in the army may replace it’s shas’ui with Aun’shi.

(as listed before)

Shas’o’Kais
One firewarrior or pathfinder squad in the army may replace it’s shas’ui with Shas’O’Kais.

(as listed on previous page, except…)

Crack Marksmen: O’kais has battled numerous times with monstrous creatures and enemy tanks, and he and his squad know how to use their pulse weapons to deadliest effect, aiming for weak points on enemy infantry and armor. His unit’s shooting attack benefit from rending USR’s. The unit never wounds any worse than a 3+ in shooting.

PATHFINDERS:

Troop Choice
Statline: bs4, effective ld 9.
Composition: 4 shas’ui, + 1 shas’vre.
85 points (12x4 + 25 for shas’ui. Bonding/Photons are freebies)
Special Rules: Bonding, Lead the cadre:
Wargear: Pulse carbine with underslung markerlight, bonding knife, photon grenades.
[Pulse Rifle]
(as codex)

Special Rules: bonding, scout, infiltrate, move though cover.

Options:
the squad may take up to 5 extra members for 12 points each

the squad may take a orbital relay for 15 points (reroll scatter die)

the squad may take up to 5 railrifles for 10 points each.

The squad may take drones, including special issue drones (2 per unit, listed with *)
gun drones 8
shield drones 10
marker drones 15
sniper drones* (rail rifle) 15
ion drones* (ionic cycler) 12 (come on, it's not even that good of a gun)

the squad may take a stealth generator (+1 cover; night fight to shoot) for 30 points.

The squad may take hardwired multitrackers for 2 points a model.

The squad may take suppression grenades (units hit move as in difficult terrain) for 2 points a model.

the squad may take airburst grenades ( no cover saves from shooting; also counts as frags) for 2 points a model (not drones).

the squad may take emp darts (assault 1 12’ - same effect assaulting with EMP grenade, also count as EMP grenades in assault) for 2 points a model (not drones).

the squad may take a devilfish; it may outflank.

Special Rule:

Lead the Cadre:

For every pathfinder team in your army, you may grant the benefits of a scout move to one other unit in the army that would not normally have it. Declare this before making any scout moves. If the unit is in reserve, it may not outflank, but may instead come in automatically from reserves instead of having to make a reserve roll.

Your right about the off-screen missiles, the do make Pathfinder's to shooty. I still think Seekers are two expensive/weak/singleminded to really be worth taking, but that's another issue.

I'd
-bring the Underslung out to a full 18", so it can operate at FOF ranges with carbines.
-take off the Max BS 5 from the Marklight.
-Make the ld penalty apply to pinning still as well
-Make drones stay Jet-packs, note that fearless only applys to them.
-Call the Specialist instead of Team leader, just because it's starting to bug me
-I still like drones being attached to the unit as a whole, rather then to particular 'controlers'

Are you still considering the Carbine as assault 2? I still think this is an important part.

I'd bring the pathfinders back down to 8 members, just because the Tau are base 8, so 10 models is a little strange. I'd be like Marine squads being 6-13 marines.

I'd have them swap the carbine for the railrifle, Otherwise it seems basicly fine.

I still think +2 to pen might be a little much. What about just capped at +1, without a fixed str. cap?

Damn, this thread is basically turning into the "Thug and Mars" show now.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:

I'd
-bring the Underslung out to a full 18", so it can operate at FOF ranges with carbines.

reasonable.

-take off the Max BS 5 from the Marklight.

ok, but there is very little benefit, statistically, to driving something up to bs6 or beyond.

-Make the ld penalty apply to pinning still as well

it applies to all leadership tests involving getting shot... so it applies to pinning as well.

-Make drones stay Jet-packs, note that fearless only applys to them.

never said drones weren't jetpacks. besides, what if you have a static drone-turret units or something? should that be relentless?

-Call the Specialist instead of Team leader, just because it's starting to bug me

meh.

-I still like drones being attached to the unit as a whole, rather then to particular 'controlers'

it's such a minor point that I can't really care one way or another.

Are you still considering the Carbine as assault 2? I still think this is an important part.

I'd bring the pathfinders back down to 8 members, just because the Tau are base 8, so 10 models is a little strange. I'd be like Marine squads being 6-13 marines.

I'd have them swap the carbine for the railrifle, Otherwise it seems basicly fine.

I still think +2 to pen might be a little much. What about just capped at +1, without a fixed str. cap?

yes, carbines are assault 2, the pathfinder thing makes me wary since a 8 man squad is easy to wipe out, (how about size 4-12? or gun drones, at least...)

railrifle for free? eh, marines do it, I guess.

2+ to pen is something I'm honestly not willing to budge on. +1 is too little (but it would be better than nothing I guess), and +3 is way too much, since a deathrain team would now be a relentless TL lascannon team after 3 markerlights. Also, without a fixed str cap, you can have wackiness like s15 railguns, or s9 pulse rifles. this seems... flawed, somehow.

I thought I'd share something I wrote elsewhere here. I haven't read it all, and I posted in the early days of pages 1-5 or so, and stopped after that. For those of you who *do* keep up, I don't know about your tau games, but I haven't lost a game as Tau in a long time. Here's why, and what I posted elsewhere.

Welcome to Tau. In answer to your question of how good Tau are....they're freakin' awesome.

Tau have just gotten a MASSIVE boost. 5th edition has shifted the meta-game into much more mechanization, and Tau are hands down the best tank killing army in existence. The second thing that Tau have at their disposal is the unique ability to influence a battle in interesting ways. You have LOTS of pinning weapons, the ability to pretty much force-pin units, wound allocation goodness to increase suit survivability, and the best troop weapon (the pulse rifle) in 40k.

How you use it all determines how you do. Personally, I find kroot distasteful. If I want a close combat element in my army, I play a 2v2 and have my wife join me with her orks. Tau are meant to shoot, shoot more, and lay down such a withering fusillade of firepower that enemy armies simply evaporate under your firepower. You'll see some interesting ideas for tau army lists floating around, and some incredibly dumb ideas too. I've been incredibly successful with a pure Tau gunline (using some tactical deployment to avoid being flanked and annihilated). Here's my advice:

1. Tau firewarriors: Take groups of 12 of them, with a shas'ui who has a handheld markerlight (10 points). Give the squad 2 gundrones, or 2 marker drones if you can afford it pointwise. I deploy these guys almost 2" apart, in a line where possible, and always in cover. 4+ armor save doesn't impress anyone, but 4+ armor save in addition to 4+ cover save does wonders for keeping firewarriors alive.

2. Broadsides. In 5th edition, Broadsides rule supreme. You should have six of them. Two teams of three. If you're playing 1,000 points or less then two teams of two. Team leader with a target lock, and both teams need two shield drones each. You've got 2+ armor saves, and your drones have 2+ armor saves and 4+ invulnerable saves. These puppies ALSO need to be deployed in cover. Preferably on top of a building somewhere that counts as ruins, so that climbing is required if people are going to try outflanking and assaulting you. Putting them in cover gives you 4+ cover saves in case you run into AP2 weaponry. Those six broadsides should form the backbone, the core, the heart, and the basis of your army. The rest of your army is really just support for your broadsides, ESPECIALLY today where everyone is running such heavily mechanized lists. Depending on mood, sometimes I'll take a Railgun hammerhead as a third heavy support for its large blast template; as anti-tank its next to useless.

3. Snipers! A heavy support choice that can consist of three individual teams of snipers. Each of them STR6 AP3, and able to headshot an MEQ without a save, and each able to pin a unit. One of my favorite, FAVORITE tactics in 40k is to have a broadside team blow up a transport, have a firewarrior team drop 1-3 markerlights (2 drones + shas'ui) on the disembarked unit, or have a pathfinder unit drop 5-8 markerlights on them, then pin them using a rail rifle and markerlight modifiers. You play against Eldar often, and those pesky wave serpents turbo-boost around the board getting cover saves, right? Drop a couple of markerlights on it, reduce its cover save to nothing, and introduce it to a whole team of broadsides. 4+ rerollable to hit, depending on facing, you need 3 or less to glance, and if they're turbo-boosting, 3+ destroys it. AP1 gives +1 on the penetration table, and if a turbo-boosting vehicle is immobilized, it counts as destroyed. Hey! Free pinning test on the guys inside!

4. Speaking of rail rifles....if you have a team of pathfinders with rail rifles+target locks, and 3 sniper teams, you can cause 9 seperate pinning tests across an enemy army. If you toss a bunch of markerlights into the fray, you can go a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way towards immobilizing an entire enemy army.

5. Crisis suits: Crisis suits exist to fill holes in your army strategy; this includes your HQs. With broadsides levelling every tank on the field, sniper drones and pathfinders forcing pinning tests on anything with a leadership value, and multiple firewarrior squads laying down ridiculous numbers of STR5 shots at anything willing to step 30" into range, you've got your anti-tank answer, some anti-MEQ, and the first step towards anti-horde. The gaps in your army are reliable MEQ and terminator killers, and more anti-horde. My favorite suit combination is plasma/fusion with multi-tracker, team leader giving me two gun or shield drones (depending on points). Drop 2 markerlights on a terminator squad, and you've got BS5 needing 2+ to hit, and at the 12" mark, you've got 6 plasma shots and 3 fusion shots. Thats 6x STR6 AP2 and 3x STR8 AP1. 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound. No saves, no feel no pain. Insta-killed anything you like. In larger games, I also take a team of "deathrain" crisis suits, which is twin-linked missile pod suits in my back, working on killing light transports or geting side armor shots on anything they can. That saves the broadsides for the big guns. Give your Shas'el Iridium armor and two shield drones, and you've got three 2+ armor save models; I think the fragmentation airburst launcher (large blast, ignores cover) is pretty much mandatory, and I give him a flamer too. Perfect anti-horde! Suits range across the field dealing death to anything that isn't being pinned or destroyed by your longer range firepower.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strategy: You now have a static gunline capable of destroying ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that can be thrown against you. The weakness: You're static. You're not moving across the board to take objectives. Believe it or not...there's a simple solution for this one too. In capture and control, you have one objective, and your enemy has one objective. In Seize ground, you're going to have one, and possible two objectives to control. You don't NEED to go take the enemy objectives. All you have to do is destroy their troop choices. With the vast amount of firepower and long range dakka....its pretty easy. Don't forget all those pinning weapons either. Pinned units can't hold an objective.

You'll need to learn and understand enemy lists, and a VERY important question you need to ask EVERY game is "What are you keeping in reserve?" You need to know what's in reserve and if its outflanking or deep-striking. If your flanks are going to be threatened, then deploy in the middle so that flanking units can't get to you. You'll also learn the magic of spreading across terrain to prevent lictor entrances, and using firewarriors to wall off access to broadsides.

That's basically it. This type of list and this strategy has pretty much won me almost every Tau game I've played in the last year. I've been playing Orks heavily for the last six months because I've decided I prefer assaulting over shooting. If you go first, the game is practically over; you can level 1/3 of the enemy army in turn 1, take out most of its mobility, and probably pin a unit or two. If you go second, you'll have to be a bit more tactical about target priorities and threat analysis, but either way, between your broadsides, markerlights, and pinning weaponry, your enemy is not doing much moving the entire game.

If you could imagine what I just described in a movie or a video game, its basically a defensive fortress. Firepower would be flying across the screen so heavily that you'd feel like getting underneath your computer desk to keep your head down. And now the metagame has shifted even more in your favor; more vehicles means less troops, and Tau anti-tank is unrivaled. Don't worry about objectives; you can deny objectives to an opponent by tabling them or killing their troops easier than you can use your own troops to hold them.

Honestly, I don't think Kroot are worth using. If you wanted to play a sneaky, outflanking army you should pick something besides Tau. Dark Eldar, or Orks. Every point you waste on a kroot (who is a subpar model in every respect; its melee usefulness is solely in its ability to tie up an enemy unit for a turn before dying) is a point that you didn't put into the overwhelming firepower that will win you games.

That's my....much more than two cents.

@dashofpepper

Amen to that I agree with you 100%

As a person who plays tau regularly, they don't need any of the boosts you guys are suggesting above. The best tau anti-tank I've seen isn't even the rail-gun or broadsides. Get an orbital relay and deep strike a twin-linked fusion blaster team and you've got a dead tank. It shouldn't be difficult to find a tank worth the same as the fusion team(which runs about 160 points). The enemy is now forced to deal with the fusion team behind its lines. Sure the team will likely only get one tank. But it'll take that out of the game, and usually force another unit to run back to deal with the fusion team. Also, hammerheads are a highly overrated tank. It suffers from one shot syndrome. No matter how good the one shot is, it's still only one shot and there are a lot of rolls to make to kill a tank. Firewarriors are fine for killing power, they just need to be improved in the holding objectives area. Maybe an enhanced role for human auxiliaries to be a cheap way to get a lot of troops on the board to hold objectives while the fire warriors can go out and do some killing.

And with IG now having squadrons of tanks, a suit team of deep striking fusion blasters can take down 2-3 tanks. 3+ on the penetration chart = destroyed with a vehicle squadron and your AP1 fusion blaster.

How about some fluff.
Tau are known for wisely picking their engagements, so why not have a rule that unless they are a defender in planetstrike they can always choose which mission and deployment and if there are two players with the same rule roll-off as normal.

Krellnus wrote:How about some fluff.
Tau are known for wisely picking their engagements, so why not have a rule that unless they are a defender in planetstrike they can always choose which mission and deployment and if there are two players with the same rule roll-off as normal.

An interesting thought...but then of course you'd have all the people that would gripe about "Spesh Marines are UBER TAKTICAL!!!" or the Eldar, or Dark Eldar, for that matter. As a side note: The Dark Eldar do have a rule stating that they will always be the attacker...but they do not get to choose the mission.

Lots of interesting ideas about changes to tau, such as the markerlights. What do you think of changing the markerlight used by firewarrior teams so that the unit can benefit from their leader having a markerlight?

Ventus wrote:Lots of interesting ideas about changes to tau, such as the markerlights. What do you think of changing the markerlight used by firewarrior teams so that the unit can benefit from their leader having a markerlight?

Well, the solution you have presented exists in the form of taking a Marker Drone for the Firewarrior team. The problem is the cost...30 points...a bit steep for a 50% chance of giving the unit BS4, etc. etc.

Training Sqaud-
9 Saal and on Ui-70pts
may buy up to 10 additional saal at 6pts ea

Wargear:
Pulse Rifles
Photon Grenades(Ui only)
Bonding Knife (Ui only)

May switch Pulse Rifles for pulse carbines at no extra cost.

BS WS S T I W A Ld Sv
Saal 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 6 4+
Ui 3 2 2 2 2 1 2 8 4+

A squad of saal undergoing their first trial by fire to be promoted to la, are led by a Ui to guide them in different situations.

An idea i just thought of, what do you think?

Krellnus wrote:Training Sqaud-
9 Saal and on Ui-70pts
may buy up to 10 additional saal at 6pts ea

Wargear:
Pulse Rifles
Photon Grenades(Ui only)
Bonding Knife (Ui only)

May switch Pulse Rifles for pulse carbines at no extra cost.

BS WS S T I W A Ld Sv
Saal 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 6 4+
Ui 3 2 2 2 2 1 2 8 4+

A squad of saal undergoing their first trial by fire to be promoted to la, are led by a Ui to guide them in different situations.

An idea i just thought of, what do you think?

Not bad, but a few flaws...
-why would only the Shas'ui have Photon Grenades? Either a whole unit has to take them, or none at all. Since assaults would be made against this entire unit, (no IC), then figuring out a single model that would negate bonus attacks due to charging is just wayyyy overcomplicated.

-Is there a reason the stats of the Shas'ui are less than that of a normal Fire Warrior Shas'ui?

-This seems very much like a Conscript/Whiteshield Platoon...

Che-Vito wrote:

Krellnus wrote:Training Sqaud-
9 Saal and on Ui-70pts
may buy up to 10 additional saal at 6pts ea

Wargear:
Pulse Rifles
Photon Grenades(Ui only)
Bonding Knife (Ui only)

May switch Pulse Rifles for pulse carbines at no extra cost.

BS WS S T I W A Ld Sv
Saal 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 6 4+
Ui 3 2 2 2 2 1 2 8 4+

A squad of saal undergoing their first trial by fire to be promoted to la, are led by a Ui to guide them in different situations.

An idea i just thought of, what do you think?

Not bad, but a few flaws...
-why would only the Shas'ui have Photon Grenades? Either a whole unit has to take them, or none at all. Since assaults would be made against this entire unit, (no IC), then figuring out a single model that would negate bonus attacks due to charging is just wayyyy overcomplicated.

-Is there a reason the stats of the Shas'ui are less than that of a normal Fire Warrior Shas'ui?

-This seems very much like a Conscript/Whiteshield Platoon...

1. How would it be complicated? He just throws the grenade and the enemy is slightly disorientated
2. Lol a typo my bad
3. How observant

Krellnus wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Krellnus wrote:Training Sqaud-
9 Saal and on Ui-70pts
may buy up to 10 additional saal at 6pts ea

Wargear:
Pulse Rifles
Photon Grenades(Ui only)
Bonding Knife (Ui only)

May switch Pulse Rifles for pulse carbines at no extra cost.

BS WS S T I W A Ld Sv
Saal 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 6 4+
Ui 3 2 2 2 2 1 2 8 4+

A squad of saal undergoing their first trial by fire to be promoted to la, are led by a Ui to guide them in different situations.

An idea i just thought of, what do you think?

Not bad, but a few flaws...
-why would only the Shas'ui have Photon Grenades? Either a whole unit has to take them, or none at all. Since assaults would be made against this entire unit, (no IC), then figuring out a single model that would negate bonus attacks due to charging is just wayyyy overcomplicated.

-Is there a reason the stats of the Shas'ui are less than that of a normal Fire Warrior Shas'ui?

-This seems very much like a Conscript/Whiteshield Platoon...

1. How would it be complicated? He just throws the grenade and the enemy is slightly disorientated
2. Lol a typo my bad
3. How observant

1. Because then only single model would negate the extra attack as opposed to the entire unit negating it. It seems apparent that you aren't aware how many "little" disruptions like explaning to your opponent why they only lose a single attack for a single model in their squad, can slow down a game terribly.

3. Again, you are painting a picture of yourself as someone that is quite new to the game. If people want Tau to simply be Xenos Guard, then so be it, but as it is, they have some flavor of their own. I point out that your idea seems to be ripped right out of the IG Codex, to remind you that making Tau and IG even more similar is not a good idea.

Sarcasm is marvelous, but you need to know what you are talking about first.

Hey Guys, Sorry its benn so long dealing with interesting times IRL. Had to back burner the Fan-dex for a bit. Am back working on it but will be posting sporadically for a while.

I am currently overhauling the kroot trying to bring in some elements from the mercenary list but tweeked/nerfed for Tau. Almost done, will post it soon or will give it to Mr.R4and0m to post.

Later

Che-Vito wrote:

Krellnus wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Krellnus wrote:Training Sqaud-
9 Saal and on Ui-70pts
may buy up to 10 additional saal at 6pts ea

Wargear:
Pulse Rifles
Photon Grenades(Ui only)
Bonding Knife (Ui only)

May switch Pulse Rifles for pulse carbines at no extra cost.

BS WS S T I W A Ld Sv
Saal 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 6 4+
Ui 3 2 2 2 2 1 2 8 4+

A squad of saal undergoing their first trial by fire to be promoted to la, are led by a Ui to guide them in different situations.

An idea i just thought of, what do you think?

Not bad, but a few flaws...
-why would only the Shas'ui have Photon Grenades? Either a whole unit has to take them, or none at all. Since assaults would be made against this entire unit, (no IC), then figuring out a single model that would negate bonus attacks due to charging is just wayyyy overcomplicated.

-Is there a reason the stats of the Shas'ui are less than that of a normal Fire Warrior Shas'ui?

-This seems very much like a Conscript/Whiteshield Platoon...

1. How would it be complicated? He just throws the grenade and the enemy is slightly disorientated
2. Lol a typo my bad
3. How observant

1. Because then only single model would negate the extra attack as opposed to the entire unit negating it. It seems apparent that you aren't aware how many "little" disruptions like explaning to your opponent why they only lose a single attack for a single model in their squad, can slow down a game terribly.

3. Again, you are painting a picture of yourself as someone that is quite new to the game. If people want Tau to simply be Xenos Guard, then so be it, but as it is, they have some flavor of their own. I point out that your idea seems to be ripped right out of the IG Codex, to remind you that making Tau and IG even more similar is not a good idea.

Sarcasm is marvelous, but you need to know what you are talking about first.

Ok ok ok I give you got, seriously though I haven't read the new guard codex so I wouldn't know

1. I honestly find it harder that the whole squad negates i mean there is less and less people and yet it still has the same effect.

3. I really don't want xenos guard merely wanting to make ethereals and kroot viable options e.g give the the ethereals some armour for crying out loud they die to easy (although for 50pts they still are a pretty good option with bodyguard)

How would I "fix" the tau?
...With a Knife.

Krellnus wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Krellnus wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Krellnus wrote:Training Sqaud-
9 Saal and on Ui-70pts
may buy up to 10 additional saal at 6pts ea

Wargear:
Pulse Rifles
Photon Grenades(Ui only)
Bonding Knife (Ui only)

May switch Pulse Rifles for pulse carbines at no extra cost.

BS WS S T I W A Ld Sv
Saal 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 6 4+
Ui 3 2 2 2 2 1 2 8 4+

A squad of saal undergoing their first trial by fire to be promoted to la, are led by a Ui to guide them in different situations.

An idea i just thought of, what do you think?

Not bad, but a few flaws...
-why would only the Shas'ui have Photon Grenades? Either a whole unit has to take them, or none at all. Since assaults would be made against this entire unit, (no IC), then figuring out a single model that would negate bonus attacks due to charging is just wayyyy overcomplicated.

-Is there a reason the stats of the Shas'ui are less than that of a normal Fire Warrior Shas'ui?

-This seems very much like a Conscript/Whiteshield Platoon...

1. How would it be complicated? He just throws the grenade and the enemy is slightly disorientated
2. Lol a typo my bad
3. How observant

1. Because then only single model would negate the extra attack as opposed to the entire unit negating it. It seems apparent that you aren't aware how many "little" disruptions like explaning to your opponent why they only lose a single attack for a single model in their squad, can slow down a game terribly.

3. Again, you are painting a picture of yourself as someone that is quite new to the game. If people want Tau to simply be Xenos Guard, then so be it, but as it is, they have some flavor of their own. I point out that your idea seems to be ripped right out of the IG Codex, to remind you that making Tau and IG even more similar is not a good idea.

Sarcasm is marvelous, but you need to know what you are talking about first.

Ok ok ok I give you got, seriously though I haven't read the new guard codex so I wouldn't know

1. I honestly find it harder that the whole squad negates i mean there is less and less people and yet it still has the same effect.

3. I really don't want xenos guard merely wanting to make ethereals and kroot viable options e.g give the the ethereals some armour for crying out loud they die to easy (although for 50pts they still are a pretty good option with bodyguard)

1. Ah, okay. Well, I will explain to make it easier! When Squad D takes any kind of defensive grenades, ALL extra Close Combat attacks due to Charging from Squad A, are negated. Therefore, the amount of attacks allowed for Squad A is only what is listed on their stat block.

3. The most powerful rule for Ethereals is the ability to re-roll morale checks to units within LOS. This means if you need your Fire Warriors to fall back in CC, or to stand their ground during shooting, you can reroll Ld. in hopes of a favorable roll. Also, attaching them as an IC to a squad of Broadsides works quite well, especially if the Broadsides have their own compliment of Shield Drones.

The Kroot will need a LOT of loving, to make me want to play them on anything but a heavily forested map.

Give FW Pistols standard

Che-Vito wrote:

Krellnus wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Krellnus wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Krellnus wrote:Training Sqaud-
9 Saal and on Ui-70pts
may buy up to 10 additional saal at 6pts ea

Wargear:
Pulse Rifles
Photon Grenades(Ui only)
Bonding Knife (Ui only)

May switch Pulse Rifles for pulse carbines at no extra cost.

BS WS S T I W A Ld Sv
Saal 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 6 4+
Ui 3 2 2 2 2 1 2 8 4+

A squad of saal undergoing their first trial by fire to be promoted to la, are led by a Ui to guide them in different situations.

An idea i just thought of, what do you think?

Not bad, but a few flaws...
-why would only the Shas'ui have Photon Grenades? Either a whole unit has to take them, or none at all. Since assaults would be made against this entire unit, (no IC), then figuring out a single model that would negate bonus attacks due to charging is just wayyyy overcomplicated.

-Is there a reason the stats of the Shas'ui are less than that of a normal Fire Warrior Shas'ui?

-This seems very much like a Conscript/Whiteshield Platoon...

1. How would it be complicated? He just throws the grenade and the enemy is slightly disorientated
2. Lol a typo my bad
3. How observant

1. Because then only single model would negate the extra attack as opposed to the entire unit negating it. It seems apparent that you aren't aware how many "little" disruptions like explaning to your opponent why they only lose a single attack for a single model in their squad, can slow down a game terribly.

3. Again, you are painting a picture of yourself as someone that is quite new to the game. If people want Tau to simply be Xenos Guard, then so be it, but as it is, they have some flavor of their own. I point out that your idea seems to be ripped right out of the IG Codex, to remind you that making Tau and IG even more similar is not a good idea.

Sarcasm is marvelous, but you need to know what you are talking about first.

Ok ok ok I give you got, seriously though I haven't read the new guard codex so I wouldn't know

1. I honestly find it harder that the whole squad negates i mean there is less and less people and yet it still has the same effect.

3. I really don't want xenos guard merely wanting to make ethereals and kroot viable options e.g give the the ethereals some armour for crying out loud they die to easy (although for 50pts they still are a pretty good option with bodyguard)

1. Ah, okay. Well, I will explain to make it easier! When Squad D takes any kind of defensive grenades, ALL extra Close Combat attacks due to Charging from Squad A, are negated. Therefore, the amount of attacks allowed for Squad A is only what is listed on their stat block.

3. The most powerful rule for Ethereals is the ability to re-roll morale checks to units within LOS. This means if you need your Fire Warriors to fall back in CC, or to stand their ground during shooting, you can reroll Ld. in hopes of a favorable roll. Also, attaching them as an IC to a squad of Broadsides works quite well, especially if the Broadsides have their own compliment of Shield Drones.

The Kroot will need a LOT of loving, to make me want to play them on anything but a heavily forested map.

Yes the poor kroot need a lot of TLC so do vespids but not as much