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Milquetoast Thug wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:So... To further my point of view that the Tau codex is just freakin' dandy, have any of you guys been noting the changes in the meta game lately? Tau keep coming out more and more on top.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Bravo sir, bravo.

Tau really should just be the "Xenos" book and include those Lizardman dudes as well as the other lesser known alien races.


Just kind of a lot neater.

Hollismason wrote:Tau really should just be the "Xenos" book and include those Lizardman dudes as well as the other lesser known alien races.


Just kind of a lot neater.

...shortly followed by the "Humanoids" book that compiles every Human and human-mutant army variant...

Okay, now that we've put that silliness aside, let's continue the discussion about the Tau

i think that tau commanders should be able to take different types of battle suits from the tau armory, so you could have a commander broadside, crisis, or stealth suit.

Also, he shouldn't even HAVE to take a battle suit. you should be able to field a tau commander on foot.

perhaps depending on the battle suit you choose, you could take one squad of that particular suit for a troop choice.

Foxy_Grandpa wrote:i think that tau commanders should be able to take different types of battle suits from the tau armory, so you could have a commander broadside, crisis, or stealth suit.

Also, he shouldn't even HAVE to take a battle suit. you should be able to field a tau commander on foot.

perhaps depending on the battle suit you choose, you could take one squad of that particular suit for a troop choice.

I like the way you think...reminds me very much of some ideas used in the Dark Eldar codex...

They also need to drop that incredibly silly +1 requirement for firewarriors. It is nothing but trouble, really.

So, I'm bored, so I figured this would be good time and place to deposit a few ideas I;ve been kicking around for special characters, as well as a remix on the lowly firewarrior. note that the character are not independent, but rather squad add-ons like Telios or Harker.

FIREWARRIORS:
Statline: as before, except the squad has ld8 from the built in shas’ui. Shas’ui has bs4; everyone else is bs3 as usual.

Troop Choice
Composition: 5 Firewarrior + 1 shas’ui.
60 points (8x5 + 20 for shas’ui+knife. Photons are freebies)
USR: none.
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, bonding knife, photon grenades.
[Pulse Rifle]
(as codex)
[Pulse Carbine]
(as codex, but assault 2.)

Options:
The squad may take up to 12 additional members for 8 points each.
Any firewarrior may exchange his pulse rifle for a pulse carbine at no additional cost.
The squad may take drones as usual, etc etc.
The squad may take a devilfish with all the usual trimmings, blah blah.
The Shas’ui may take a markerlight at 10 points.

[A larger squad size = beefier and better. This would be a unit I'd be happy to actually field; since it take a lot of shooting to kill all of them.]

BODYGUARD SQUAD: For every ethereal in the army, you may take 1 Bodyguard Firewarrior squad. This squad does not take up a FOC selection but is treated as a troop choice in every other respect. You may take one as one of your mandatory troop choices.

Statline: as firewarriors, except the squad has ld8 base, and effective ld 9 from a built in veteran shas’vre. The unit is bs4 and ws 3.

Troop Choice
Composition: 5 Firewarrior + 1 shas’ui.
75 points (10x5 + 25)
USR: stubborn.
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, bonding knife, photon grenades.
[Pulse Rifle]
(as codex)

Special Rule:

Bodyguards: You may allocate an extra wound on each bodyguard instead of allocating them to an attached independent character.

Options:
The squad may take up to 6 additional members for 10 points each.
Any bodyguard may exchange his pulse rifle for a pulse carbine at no additional cost.
The squad may take drones as usual, etc etc.
The squad may take a devilfish with all the usual trimmings, blah blah.
3 models may take markerlights for 10 points each.

[Basically a replacement for those bs4 bodyguards in the HQ section I never seen anyone use. They have the "normal" max squad size of 12 instead of 18.]

+++

Aun’shi
One firewarrior or bodyguard squad in the army may take Aun'shi.

80 points
WS 4
BS 0
S3
T3
A3
I4
W2
Ld 10
Sv. (4+)

USR: Stubborn, Counter Attack, Preferred Enemy.
Wargear: Honor Blade, (counts as that unit’s bonding knife, +2S) Shield Generator.

Special Rules:

Ethereal: Aun’shi’s unit may reroll all leadership tests, including successful tests. He grants his unit stubborn. If he dies, all tau within 12'' must take a leadership check or fall back.

Honored One: Aun’shi is considered an “honorary” member of the fire caste due to his bravery and ferocity in battle. He grants his unit counter attack and preferred enemy.

Lucky: Aun’shi is considered an incredible source of luck, a belief widely embraced by members of the fire caste. Aun’shi and his unit may reroll all armor, cover, or invul saves.

[Basically, anyone who complains about the fragility of firewarriors would like this version of the character. He will keep that unit sitting on the objective long wnough to see turn 5 even without a devilfish, and stubborn keeps the pesky IG from trying scare you off with a psyker squad. but if you end up with no cover save...well, that would be bad.

Still, rerolling saves is huge, hence the pricetag.]

+++

Shas’o’Kais (the one from the decent novel/crappy game)
One firewarrior, bodyguard, or pathfinder squad in the army may replace it’s shas’ui/shas’vre with Shas’O’Kais.

60 points
WS 4
BS 5
S3
T3
A2
I3
W1
Ld. 9
Sv 4+

USR: Tank Hunter, Stubborn.
Wargear: Pulse rifle with underslung markerlight. (He may exchange it for a pulse carbine with under slung markerlight for free.), Bonding knife, Photon and EMP grenades.

Special Rules:

Crack Marksmen: O’kais has battled numerous times with monstrous creatures and enemy tanks, and he and his squad know how to use their pulse weapons to deadliest effect, aiming for weak points on enemy infantry and armor. His unit’s shooting attack benefit from rending and tank hunter USR’s. This also affects seeker missiles fired from the unit.

Gun them Down!: O’kais knows full well the consequences of allowing foes to reach tau lines. If O’kais’s unit is assaulted, his unit may take a leadership test. If passed, they may shoot one of the attacking units during the assault phase. This occurs after the enemy has moved his models, but before “defenders react”. If you chose to do this, O’kais’s unit may not strike back in that assault phase, nor do they benefit from photon grenades, as they have sacrificed a stable footing in melee for a better firing stance.

[Very shooty. He might be a better option vs. mechanized armies, as you would have a reasonable shot at putting a serious hurt on a rhino rush if he's in a maxed-out squad. Gun them down! might seem overly powerful, until you realize that he might screw up the leadership roll, and that by the time assault occurs, you will probably have lost some models anyways from shooting.]

I'm going to do this in sections:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:So, I'm bored, so I figured this would be good time and place to deposit a few ideas I;ve been kicking around for special characters, as well as a remix on the lowly firewarrior. note that the character are not independent, but rather squad add-ons like Telios or Harker.

FIREWARRIORS:
Statline: as before, except the squad has ld8 from the built in shas’ui. Shas’ui has bs4; everyone else is bs3 as usual.

Troop Choice
Composition: 5 Firewarrior + 1 shas’ui.
60 points (8x5 + 20 for shas’ui+knife. Photons are freebies)
USR: none.
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, bonding knife, photon grenades.
[Pulse Rifle]
(as codex)
[Pulse Carbine]
(as codex, but assault 2.)

Options:
The squad may take up to 12 additional members for 8 points each.
Any firewarrior may exchange his pulse rifle for a pulse carbine at no additional cost.
The squad may take drones as usual, etc etc.
The squad may take a devilfish with all the usual trimmings, blah blah.
The Shas’ui may take a markerlight at 10 points.

[A larger squad size = beefier and better. This would be a unit I'd be happy to actually field; since it take a lot of shooting to kill all of them.]

I think you may have overcompinsated for the slight underpoweredness of the Fire Warrior. Even 4+ Guard Vets are 10pts a peice before weapons. I agree with free photon grenades & bonding, but I'd increase the additional model cost to at least 9pts. Personaly I'd rather have the Firewarriors be worth their 10-12 points then drop in cost and become more horde. I've always seen them as a smaller, better trained and equiped fighting force. Like a midrange between IG & Marines. Athough I agree with the pulse carbine becoming 2 shot, it starts to make the rifle pale in comparison.

BODYGUARD SQUAD: For every ethereal in the army, you may take 1 Bodyguard Firewarrior squad. This squad does not take up a FOC selection but is treated as a troop choice in every other respect. You may take one as one of your mandatory troop choices.

Statline: as firewarriors, except the squad has ld8 base, and effective ld 9 from a built in veteran shas’vre. The unit is bs4 and ws 3.

Troop Choice
Composition: 5 Firewarrior + 1 shas’ui.
75 points (10x5 + 25)
USR: stubborn.
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, bonding knife, photon grenades.
[Pulse Rifle]
(as codex)

Special Rule:

Bodyguards: You may allocate an extra wound on each bodyguard instead of allocating them to an attached independent character.

Options:
The squad may take up to 6 additional members for 10 points each.
Any bodyguard may exchange his pulse rifle for a pulse carbine at no additional cost.
The squad may take drones as usual, etc etc.
The squad may take a devilfish with all the usual trimmings, blah blah.
3 models may take markerlights for 10 points each.

[Basically a replacement for those bs4 bodyguards in the HQ section I never seen anyone use. They have the "normal" max squad size of 12 instead of 18.]

I've used and loved those bodyguards BS4 Fire Warriors are deadly. The main issue I have with them is they're not troops, meaning you can't claim with them, forcing you to put your etherial forward. But I digress. My issues with this are the same as the FW above.

Aun’shi
One firewarrior or bodyguard squad in the army may take Aun'shi.

80 points
WS 4
BS 0
S3
T3
A3
I4
W2
Ld 10
Sv. (4+)

USR: Stubborn, Counter Attack, Preferred Enemy.
Wargear: Honor Blade, (counts as that unit’s bonding knife, +2S) Shield Generator.

Special Rules:

Ethereal: Aun’shi’s unit may reroll all leadership tests, including successful tests. He grants his unit stubborn. If he dies, all tau within 12'' must take a leadership check or fall back.

Honored One: Aun’shi is considered an “honorary” member of the fire caste due to his bravery and ferocity in battle. He grants his unit counter attack and preferred enemy.

Lucky: Aun’shi is considered an incredible source of luck, a belief widely embraced by members of the fire caste. Aun’shi and his unit may reroll all armor, cover, or invul saves.

[Basically, anyone who complains about the fragility of firewarriors would like this version of the character. He will keep that unit sitting on the objective long wnough to see turn 5 even without a devilfish, and stubborn keeps the pesky IG from trying scare you off with a psyker squad. but if you end up with no cover save...well, that would be bad.

Still, rerolling saves is huge, hence the pricetag.]

I'd specify that he's counts as the Etherial, so you can't take him and an etherial in the same squad. And although this doesn't feal like Aun'shi to me, I don't see anything inarently bad about this guy.

Shas’o’Kais (the one from the decent novel/crappy game)
One firewarrior, bodyguard, or pathfinder squad in the army may replace it’s shas’ui/shas’vre with Shas’O’Kais.

60 points
WS 4
BS 5
S3
T3
A2
I3
W1
Ld. 9
Sv 4+

USR: Tank Hunter, Stubborn.
Wargear: Pulse rifle with underslung markerlight. (He may exchange it for a pulse carbine with under slung markerlight for free.), Bonding knife, Photon and EMP grenades.

Special Rules:

Crack Marksmen: O’kais has battled numerous times with monstrous creatures and enemy tanks, and he and his squad know how to use their pulse weapons to deadliest effect, aiming for weak points on enemy infantry and armor. His unit’s shooting attack benefit from rending and tank hunter USR’s. This also affects seeker missiles fired from the unit.

Gun them Down!: O’kais knows full well the consequences of allowing foes to reach tau lines. If O’kais’s unit is assaulted, his unit may take a leadership test. If passed, they may shoot one of the attacking units during the assault phase. This occurs after the enemy has moved his models, but before “defenders react”. If you chose to do this, O’kais’s unit may not strike back in that assault phase, nor do they benefit from photon grenades, as they have sacrificed a stable footing in melee for a better firing stance.

[Very shooty. He might be a better option vs. mechanized armies, as you would have a reasonable shot at putting a serious hurt on a rhino rush if he's in a maxed-out squad. Gun them down! might seem overly powerful, until you realize that he might screw up the leadership roll, and that by the time assault occurs, you will probably have lost some models anyways from shooting.]

During the FPS, Kais wasn't a shas'o, and he doesn't have a shas'o's stats. But that's a naming argument. I'd be nice to see him with some personal advantage along with unit upgrades. There was an old White Dwarf that listed him with the ability to take any 2 weapons from a long list, and made him Relentless. I like them having tank hunters, but Rending might be a little overpowered as a unit upgrade.

Fire warriors should be BS4. This makes them slightly less surviveable than sisters of battle, slightly stronger against 5+ saves, but slightly weaker against 4+ or stronger. I believe this is balanced.

Kroot rifles should be assault 1, 18" weapons. This makes them slightly weaker at shooting, but allows them to be good in the counter-assault role they were designed for.

Vespid Strain Leaders should be 16 points, vespid should be BS4. Neutron Blaster should be AP1, so it would also be decent anti light vehicle and anti-terminator.

Battlesuit commanders should no be 1+
Fire Warriors should not be 1+

Battlesuits, Stealth Suits, Pathfinders, and all Vehicles should be BS4. They are a shooty army FFS, they should be good at shooting.

I think that would fix just about everything.

The Revelator wrote:Fire warriors should be BS4. This makes them slightly less surviveable than sisters of battle, slightly stronger against 5+ saves, but slightly weaker against 4+ or stronger. I believe this is balanced.

Making Fire Warriors BS4 is one solution, but I don't think it's nessisaraly the best one.

Kroot rifles should be assault 1, 18" weapons. This makes them slightly weaker at shooting, but allows them to be good in the counter-assault role they were designed for.

I compleatly disagree. As far as I can tell, they were designed for area denial and objective holding, both of which would become almost majorly weakened with Assault 1 18" weapons. They're also good for outflanking, which is the only time such a weapon would be useful. In 75% of my games, my Kroot kill more with their guns then they do with their assault.

Vespid Strain Leaders should be 16 points, vespid should be BS4. Neutron Blaster should be AP1, so it would also be decent anti light vehicle and anti-terminator.

I Haven't played with them, so I don't know

Battlesuit commanders should no be 1+
Fire Warriors should not be 1+

Yeah, they're gitting rid of most of that with the new publications anyway.

Battlesuits, Stealth Suits, Pathfinders, and all Vehicles should be BS4. They are a shooty army FFS, they should be good at shooting.

I think that would fix just about everything.

Personaly, I think that would be more like bandaid then a true fix. But it would help.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:I'm going to do this in sections:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:So, I'm bored, so I figured this would be good time and place to deposit a few ideas I;ve been kicking around for special characters, as well as a remix on the lowly firewarrior. note that the character are not independent, but rather squad add-ons like Telios or Harker.

FIREWARRIORS:
Statline: as before, except the squad has ld8 from the built in shas’ui. Shas’ui has bs4; everyone else is bs3 as usual.

Troop Choice
Composition: 5 Firewarrior + 1 shas’ui.
60 points (8x5 + 20 for shas’ui+knife. Photons are freebies)
USR: none.
Wargear: Pulse Rifle, bonding knife, photon grenades.
[Pulse Rifle]
(as codex)
[Pulse Carbine]
(as codex, but assault 2.)

Options:
The squad may take up to 12 additional members for 8 points each.
Any firewarrior may exchange his pulse rifle for a pulse carbine at no additional cost.
The squad may take drones as usual, etc etc.
The squad may take a devilfish with all the usual trimmings, blah blah.
The Shas’ui may take a markerlight at 10 points.

[A larger squad size = beefier and better. This would be a unit I'd be happy to actually field; since it take a lot of shooting to kill all of them.]

I think you may have overcompinsated for the slight underpoweredness of the Fire Warrior. Even 4+ Guard Vets are 10pts a peice before weapons. I agree with free photon grenades & bonding, but I'd increase the additional model cost to at least 9pts. Personaly I'd rather have the Firewarriors be worth their 10-12 points then drop in cost and become more horde. I've always seen them as a smaller, better trained and equiped fighting force. Like a midrange between IG & Marines. Athough I agree with the pulse carbine becoming 2 shot, it starts to make the rifle pale in comparison.

They're reallly 6 points, since all IG choices pay an extra 10 for a vet sarge (ld 8). really, vets are 6 points, and 9 points with a doctrines (like 4+ save).

Also, You seem to forgotten that vets are bs4, ws 3 and I 3 (better than fw's, in other words), and can get anti-tank weapons. firewarriors can't. Furthermore, the only ways to make a unit more survivable is a better save (inappropirate here - they'd have power armor then!), or to increase it's stat line (implasuaibe - they're no toughter than guardsmen), or to drop the cost and price (last option left.)

Besides, you know what other unit has a max squad size of 20? chaos marines, another "elite unit". I rest my case.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
Also, You seem to forgotten that vets are bs4, ws 3 and I 3 (better than fw's, in other words), and can get anti-tank weapons. firewarriors can't. Furthermore, the only ways to make a unit more survivable is a better save (inappropirate here - they'd have power armor then!), or to increase it's stat line (implasuaibe - they're no toughter than guardsmen), or to drop the cost and price (last option left.)\

One way to be more "survivable" is to enable the Tau to whittle down their enemies with ranged fire, better. Less enemies firing at the Tau, means more models "surviving".

It does make sense to increase the statline in some places:
-BS

It does make sense to shift their weapon stats around:
-look at many already suggested weapon changes

It does NOT make sense for the Tau to every be fielding large numbers of units. It makes no sense fluffwise, and by keeping the Tau smaller, and more mobile...they avoid being "Xenos IG".

Vespids need a 4+ save they are just to fragile especially out in the open or assault.

Che-Vito wrote:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
Also, You seem to forgotten that vets are bs4, ws 3 and I 3 (better than fw's, in other words), and can get anti-tank weapons. firewarriors can't. Furthermore, the only ways to make a unit more survivable is a better save (inappropirate here - they'd have power armor then!), or to increase it's stat line (implasuaibe - they're no toughter than guardsmen), or to drop the cost and price (last option left.)\

One way to be more "survivable" is to enable the Tau to whittle down their enemies with ranged fire, better. Less enemies firing at the Tau, means more models "surviving".

It does make sense to increase the statline in some places:
-BS

It does make sense to shift their weapon stats around:
-look at many already suggested weapon changes

It does NOT make sense for the Tau to every be fielding large numbers of units. It makes no sense fluffwise, and by keeping the Tau smaller, and more mobile...they avoid being "Xenos IG".

then I suppose you will ALSO tell me it wouldn't make sense fluffwise for guardian defender squads to have a max squad size of 20, seeing as the eldar are, let's see, ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION.

Furthermore, a unit is going to stay alive longer by using ANTI-INFANTRY guns in an increasingly MECHANIZED enviroment to "whitle down" enemies? When in order to remove heavy/special weapons you need to kill a infantry squad to the last? Even in cases where you could kill a enemy unit right off the bat and make you units survive better, guss what - 90 of the time the unit will be a vehicle, and guess what fw's can't kill. That's right, tanks.

This arguement is insane. it's like saying that Thousand Sons are more surviable than plague marines because Thousand Sons are shootier.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
Also, You seem to forgotten that vets are bs4, ws 3 and I 3 (better than fw's, in other words), and can get anti-tank weapons. firewarriors can't. Furthermore, the only ways to make a unit more survivable is a better save (inappropirate here - they'd have power armor then!), or to increase it's stat line (implasuaibe - they're no toughter than guardsmen), or to drop the cost and price (last option left.)\

One way to be more "survivable" is to enable the Tau to whittle down their enemies with ranged fire, better. Less enemies firing at the Tau, means more models "surviving".

It does make sense to increase the statline in some places:
-BS

It does make sense to shift their weapon stats around:
-look at many already suggested weapon changes

It does NOT make sense for the Tau to every be fielding large numbers of units. It makes no sense fluffwise, and by keeping the Tau smaller, and more mobile...they avoid being "Xenos IG".

then I suppose you will ALSO tell me it wouldn't make sense fluffwise for guardian defender squads to have a max squad size of 20, seeing as the eldar are, let's see, ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION.

Furthermore, a unit is going to stay alive longer by using ANTI-INFANTRY guns in an increasingly MECHANIZED enviroment to "whitle down" enemies? When in order to remove heavy/special weapons you need to kill a infantry squad to the last? Even in cases where you could kill a enemy unit right off the bat and make you units survive better, guss what - 90 of the time the unit will be a vehicle, and guess what fw's can't kill. That's right, tanks.

This arguement is insane. it's like saying that Thousand Sons are more surviable than plague marines because Thousand Sons are shootier.

For the Eldar, maybe it doesn't make sense...I don't care, I don't play Eldar.

The Battlesuits, Tau vehicles, and Broadsides are more than enough for anti-armor. The Fire Warriors are infantry. If you read Tau fluff, their forces are very regimented for a specific role, and the Tau army works when all units are performing at their sychronized best.

5th Edition gave a definite advantage to CC units, as far as movement goes. The Tau will survive with more certainty if they keep enemies at a distance, so yes, by playing Tau correctly and using BS4, they can be much more "survivable" by keeping most infantry out of shooting or CC range.

Neconilis wrote:

Milquetoast Thug wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:So... To further my point of view that the Tau codex is just freakin' dandy, have any of you guys been noting the changes in the meta game lately? Tau keep coming out more and more on top.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Bravo sir, bravo.

Really? The meta game has shifted towards pure armor lists even further then before due to battle psykers, executioners and generally everything in the new IG dex. As a result the meta-game is playing to the strength of the tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and generally speaking this idea of a fan made broken dex is entirely filled with fail, aids and more fail. You should all be ashamed of asking for more from an army that you can't seem to field with the efficiency demanded by the eterial caste.

Kungfuhustle does have an excellent point about meta games and mech. Tau are well equipped to take down mech armies. However, specializing for that leaves Tau very vulnerable to hordes (and by very vulnerable, I mean ankle-grabbing). Tau have a tough time generalizing, due to the lack of special/heavy weapons in FW squads. Tau also have a difficult time achieving wipe-outs, for obvious reasons (CC being the king of wipe-outs), thus leaving them in a spoiler role.

Tau do need some minor fixes-FW need to drop to 8 points, with free leader + bonding.
Pathfinders-Stealth, Move through Cover. Maybe -1 pt/model. Free leader + bonding.
Kroot-Stealth, Move through Cover. Shaper-can take rending/power weapon-16 points total with rending, 18 with power weapon.
Krootox-these guys need a redo. They're just wacky. Unless they get some (non-overcosted) Ogryn-like role. In fact, I might just start a thread for them separately.
Vespids-S4 Assault 2 AP3 weapons. -2 points/model.
Skyray-same rule as Hydra regarding SMF. Still probably won't get taken, as the Railhead is made of sex & win.
Drone KP issues-only FA drones & DEPLOYED drone squadrons from vehicle squadrons (i.e. Piranhas) count for KP. Dfish drones join the unit inside the Dfish, and don't count as KP if the Dfish eats it before deploying.
Marker drones-go down by 10 points.
Sniper teams-go down by 15 points.
Dpod-+10 points.

That's the quick'n'dirty fix list (i.e., WD fix list).

Extended version - Tau need a signature mechanic. Probably their most likely mechanic is markerlights. They are synergy on a stick. They scream 'for the greater good'. Increased access to markerlights, or greater effects, will probably be the order of the day.

I might post more later...got to go to lunch.

You know, 18-man squads of Fire Warriors are starting to sound pretty good. I often take 18-man Kroot squads to hold backfield objectives by just going to ground in cover and having lots of wounds, but 18 Fire Warriors could follow the same role while laying down lots of medium range fire. Leave one squad of 18 in the back, send forward a couple squads of 12 in D-fish to rapid fire things.

Really bthom? You think that tau are bad at killing hordes? I have seen tau massacre green tide lists on several occasions and I have seen it done with consistancy.

how many points for 6 squads of 18 Firewarriors with a leader and bonding knife? That's a ridiculous amount of s5!!!

Kungfuhustler wrote:Really bthom? You think that tau are bad at killing hordes? I have seen tau massacre green tide lists on several occasions and I have seen it done with consistancy.

how many points for 6 squads of 18 Firewarriors with a leader and bonding knife? That's a ridiculous amount of s5!!!

Tau are fine at killing hordes, if they specialize for it. But that leaves them vulnerable to mech. Again, Tau do not have the flexibility to generalize.

And what squads of 18 FW are you talking about? 6x12 (max size) FW @10 ea, + 10 for sarge, +5 (IIRC) for bonding knife: 810. That can be multicharged to death. Gunlines are dead. And let's say they all shoot in RF range: 144 shots*.5=72 hits. 2/3 wound (vs. T4)=48 wounds. 4+Cover save=24 wounds. This means 810 points of FW just took out 288 or 144 points (4+ cover save) of Orks. Orks that are within 12". Good luck. Outside RF range halves the wound results. Orks shoot back (again, max troop choices all within range, to keep it fair). 132 Orks left*Assault 2*.33 chance to hit=87 hits. 5/6 wound=72 wounds. 1/2 save (4+ armor)=36 dead FW. 3 whole squads...or 2 of your 18 strong squads just ate it-405 points of FW. See where this is going?

Edit: you mentioned 18 strong squads...increases cost outlay by 360 points, results in 1/3rd more kills. Not very efficient.

Kungfuhustler wrote:
Oh, and generally speaking this idea of a fan made broken dex is entirely filled with fail, aids and more fail. You should all be ashamed of asking for more from an army that you can't seem to field with the efficiency demanded by the eterial caste.

Ethereal. Not Eterial. You should be ashamed of being unable to spell with the accuracy demanded by your 6th grade instructors.

I especially like your comment comparing fan-dexes to AIDS, Kungfu.

Personally, I have seen few well-thought out codices be broken. In fact, I frequently allow my opponents to field such, knowing that a good deal of playtesting and so forth went into constructing them.

2 prime examples are Kompletely Kroot's Kroot codex, and the Necron codex written by...Sekhmet? I've forgotten the name.

Both codices have functioned well when I've played against them.

Of course, perhaps I'm being picky. You did say, "in general". Perhaps there are many fan-made dexes that are over-powered. On the other hand, using such logic, I could say that, in general, your posts seem to contribute very little to any topic you're engaged in, suffer poor grammar and spelling, and often state things that are patently untrue and/or impossible to prove (SEE, your last two posts in this thread.) But then, perhaps you do post insightful posts elsewhere. Where those fan-dexes are, no doubt.

bthom37 wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:Really bthom? You think that tau are bad at killing hordes? I have seen tau massacre green tide lists on several occasions and I have seen it done with consistancy.

how many points for 6 squads of 18 Firewarriors with a leader and bonding knife? That's a ridiculous amount of s5!!!

Tau are fine at killing hordes, if they specialize for it. But that leaves them vulnerable to mech. Again, Tau do not have the flexibility to generalize.

And what squads of 18 FW are you talking about? 6x12 (max size) FW @10 ea, + 10 for sarge, +5 (IIRC) for bonding knife: 810. That can be multicharged to death. Gunlines are dead. And let's say they all shoot in RF range: 144 shots*.5=72 hits. 2/3 wound (vs. T4)=48 wounds. 4+Cover save=24 wounds. This means 810 points of FW just took out 288 or 144 points (4+ cover save) of Orks. Orks that are within 12". Good luck. Outside RF range halves the wound results. Orks shoot back (again, max troop choices all within range, to keep it fair). 132 Orks left*Assault 2*.33 chance to hit=87 hits. 5/6 wound=72 wounds. 1/2 save (4+ armor)=36 dead FW. 3 whole squads...or 2 of your 18 strong squads just ate it-405 points of FW. See where this is going?

Edit: you mentioned 18 strong squads...increases cost outlay by 360 points, results in 1/3rd more kills. Not very efficient.

The point of a 18 man fw team is not to increase firepower so much as it is to make them A: more resilient to shooting while dismounted, due to more wounds, more casulties needed for morale checks, and so on. This would make them a realistic alternative to kroot as dismounted objective holders. note that the two special character provided were designed with the need for the squad to stay alive in their design - one character grants extra shooting vs. assualters, the other rerollable saves. either way, the squad is more likely to stay alive as a result. Granted, the squad may not be useful offensively again anything except infantry and the odd sentinel, but a squad of them would syngergize well with crisis suit teams if only by drawing deadlier fire from the suits.

On the other side of the coin, 12 man teams under the current statblock would cost less (meaning more points for devilfish upgrades), and be more realistically able to dismount and attack due to assult 2 carbines, which would give them more breathing room. By keeping their base cost the same, but decreasing their member cost, you can encourage players to use non-minimum fw's in fish-of-fury attacks instead of just dumping the points into more suits or something like that.

It benefits GW as well - by making carbines better (when most people use rifles exclusively), and increasing fw squad sizes, they could get even veteran players to buy firewarriors again, either to get more carbines or to just get more fw's.

Finally, the squad would avoid stepping on the toes of kroot or pathfinders as troops - pathfinders would still hold the more niche role of putting down markerlights and such, and kroot would still possess alternative deployment options as well as their mild assault abilities.

I would make kroot rifles assault 1.

More suit upgrades for commanders, maybe shas'os have an upgrade option shas'el does not.

Give basic firewarriors pulse pistols and some rule that allows them to fire their pistols in CC - Gun Kata or something, or "Deny Ground" where they fire 1 shot from their pulse pistols at initiative using the guns statlines for wounding and armor penetration. Maybe they are allowed a fallback move after that round as per hit and run.

Honestly I always felt all tau infantry should have a 'hit and run' like rule, its not like they are going to use it offensively and it goes with their doctrine of not worrying about territory/holding objectives during conflict.

They're reallly 6 points, since all IG choices pay an extra 10 for a vet sarge (ld 8). really, vets are 6 points, and 9 points with a doctrines (like 4+ save).

Also, You seem to forgotten that vets are bs4, ws 3 and I 3 (better than fw's, in other words), and can get anti-tank weapons. firewarriors can't. Furthermore, the only ways to make a unit more survivable is a better save (inappropirate here - they'd have power armor then!), or to increase it's stat line (implasuaibe - they're no toughter than guardsmen), or to drop the cost and price (last option left.)

Besides, you know what other unit has a max squad size of 20? chaos marines, another "elite unit".

You seem to have forgotten Veteran guardsmen have lasguns. Even if they had BS7, lasguns won't kill like BS3 pulse weaponry. Yes they can get better weapons (for additonal points), but fire warriors start with much, much better weapons. If you look at almost all the other units in the Marine & Guard codex, the leader and other 1-off upgrades are free with the guys being a fixed price, not the other way around.

You also seem to be operating under the assumption that there's some 'survivability threashold' they have to reach to be a viable unit, which I can't see as true. There are other ways to make a unit more effective then just making it more survivable or cheaper. An when it comes specifily to unit size, the only way that increased unit size is helpful in 5th edition (as you no longer have to be above half) is by decreasing the need for leadership checks from being shot, but makes you more vulnerable to close combat(!), and if you do fail that leadership check, even more tau are running. Honestly, I'd be fine with larger squads avaliable, but I don't really think that changes anything, and like Che, It doesn't seem to follow the fluff to me.

I personaly agree that carbines should be Assault 2. That by itself greatly increases they effectivness, allowing them something resembling mobility on foot (thanks to all assault weapons) or an 18" fish of furry window. I would personaly like to see Heavy 2 Rifles so that shooting the enemy from range becomes a viable option.

I rest my case.

IMO, I hate it when people say this, like it some how ends the argument.

note that the two special character provided were designed with the need for the squad to stay alive in their design - one character grants extra shooting vs. assualters, the other rerollable saves.

I made my notes on the characters, but ultimately, I don't think the basis of the warriors should be shown in special charictors.

Granted, the squad may not be useful offensively again anything except infantry and the odd sentinel, but a squad of them would syngergize well with crisis suit teams if only by drawing deadlier fire from the suits.

If the only real use of Fire Warriors is to draw fire, then you haven't made them an effective unit. Of course, you appear to find infantry killing irrelivent to the game, which I would disagree with. After you destroy the transports, you still have to kill the men they were carrying.

total typo on the 18 firewarrior teams. meh. I can say that there are some good fan dex's out there but they are for armies that don't exist normally a.k.a. kroot or very different versions of an armies i.e. the adeptus sororitas strike force.

If you suck at playing tau, play something else, others seem to manage just fine.

Kungfuhustler wrote:If you suck at playing tau, play something else, others seem to manage just fine.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I do just fine with my Tau, but to say that they're fine as is would defeat the intellectual exercise of this thread.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:

They're reallly 6 points, since all IG choices pay an extra 10 for a vet sarge (ld 8). really, vets are 6 points, and 9 points with a doctrines (like 4+ save).

Also, You seem to forgotten that vets are bs4, ws 3 and I 3 (better than fw's, in other words), and can get anti-tank weapons. firewarriors can't. Furthermore, the only ways to make a unit more survivable is a better save (inappropirate here - they'd have power armor then!), or to increase it's stat line (implasuaibe - they're no toughter than guardsmen), or to drop the cost and price (last option left.)

Besides, you know what other unit has a max squad size of 20? chaos marines, another "elite unit".

You seem to have forgotten Veteran guardsmen have lasguns. Even if they had BS7, lasguns won't kill like BS3 pulse weaponry. Yes they can get better weapons (for additonal points), but fire warriors start with much, much better weapons. If you look at almost all the other units in the Marine & Guard codex, the leader and other 1-off upgrades are free with the guys being a fixed price, not the other way around.

Oh...my..this argument is fallacious in the extreme.

ok, yes, I did the math, bs7 lasguns falter in the face of bs3 pulse rifles. But remind me, are we buying our veterans for lasguns? no? oh, well than that's kind of strawman, isn't it. yes, lasguns suck, we get it. but a 125 point unit of vets with camo, triple grenade launchers, and a auto cannon can engage a wider range of targets and is harder to kill, in shooting AND melee.

By this logic in the post above,, vanguard ought to be a much better unit than assault marines, because they can have better weapons. but they aren't, because of the fact that they are no better at staying alive than ordinary marines, but are considerably more expensive (specifically, too expensive; sternguard toe this line but do not cross it) than ordinary marines, which trumps their "firepower" bonus. I'm not saying firewarriors need to be as cheap as guardsmen or vets, but they are too expensive as is.

Besides, every time someone brings this up, I just have to shake my head and bring this up:

3 fire warriors are putting out an amount of fire power (30'' range, s5, etc) roughly on par with a heavy bolter. 9 of them are 90 points, so that's like 3 heavy bolters, yes? But do you know how much a heavy-bolter team for imperial guard is? it's 75 points. the heavy bolter team has slightly better range (altough that's hardly an argument to use them), in cover they have the same save, they are just as dead in close combat (or if they get shot with anything serious) as the tau are, they have same leadership, and oh, they have ap4 instead of ap5. Oh, and the kicker? with orders, the heavy bolter team is probably able to do a far more cost-effective job of getting though a target's cover save than firewarriors with markerlights. And you know what? nobody (I know, anyways) uses heavy-bolter teams because they suck so hard. Even the guy at my club with the huge foot-slogging guard army takes autocannons instead.

What does this mean? if you are arguing they should be more expensive because of their guns, then you condemn them to be forever be be worthless, overpriced junk. you are basically arguing that the leadership 7 bs 3 ws 2 unit should be more expensive than the ld 8 bs4 ws 3 unit because ... the first unit had a heavy bolter-esque gun, kinda?

I'm sorry, but that gun doesn't mean a damn thing if the unit carrying it either needs to buy a 80 point transport or else lose half it's members to a pie plate turn 2.

And frankly, I don't give a damn if it's not fluffy if they had a large squad size, because you know who ARE fluffy? tankbustas and tech-priests and nork-fething-deddog are fluffy. I don't give a damn about "fluffy", I give a damn about "good". Hell not even good, I'm just shooting to make them "mildly useful."

In short, pricing wins out. It doesn't matter if you make firewarriors bs 4 relentless infantry; they still die when people look at them funny, and they are too expensive to compensate for this. Guess what - that makes for a bad unit.

Also, about that last comment: a marine squad is 90 points base with 5 guys. divide this by 5 and you get 18, yet adding marines to the squad costs only 16 points. Stormtroopers from the IG codex have the exact same thing going on. Where is this extra ten points in cost coming from, again? I'll tell you where, it's coming from the fact they build in the point cost of the +1 Ld vet into squads now. This can be found all over both codex's; for another example, assault marines are 100 base (20 a man) but it only costs 18 to add a new squad member. The extra points are going towards the squad leader, so no, that' doesn't check out either.

You also seem to be operating under the assumption that there's some 'survivability threashold' they have to reach to be a viable unit, which I can't see as true. There are other ways to make a unit more effective then just making it more survivable or cheaper. An when it comes specifily to unit size, the only way that increased unit size is helpful in 5th edition (as you no longer have to be above half) is by decreasing the need for leadership checks from being shot, but makes you more vulnerable to close combat(!), and if you do fail that leadership check, even more tau are running. Honestly, I'd be fine with larger squads avaliable, but I don't really think that changes anything, and like Che, It doesn't seem to follow the fluff to me.

Morale checks aside, a squad of vets can lose up to 6 guys (the ones with the lasguns) without there being any real impact on it's firepower, since guard and most other armies have squads built around heavy and special weapons, whereas the uniform nature of firewarriors means that each loss hurts your fire power far more. Additionally, assuming the new markerlight system is at all similar to the old one, larger units will still benefit more from markerlights. it takes 3 markerlights to make 3 squads of 6 bs4, but it only takes one for the 18 man team.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
Oh...my..this argument is fallacious in the extreme.

ok, yes, I did the math, bs7 lasguns falter in the face of bs3 pulse rifles. But remind me, are we buying our veterans for lasguns? no? oh, well than that's kind of strawman, isn't it. yes, lasguns suck, we get it. but a 125 point unit of vets with camo, triple grenade launchers, and a auto cannon can engage a wider range of targets and is harder to kill, in shooting AND melee.

By this logic in the post above,, vanguard ought to be a much better unit than assault marines, because they can have better weapons. but they aren't, because of the fact that they are no better at staying alive than ordinary marines, but are considerably more expensive (specifically, too expensive; sternguard toe this line but do not cross it) than ordinary marines, which trumps their "firepower" bonus. I'm not saying firewarriors need to be as cheap as guardsmen or vets, but they are too expensive as is.

Besides, every time someone brings this up, I just have to shake my head and bring this up:

3 fire warriors are putting out an amount of fire power (30'' range, s5, etc) roughly on par with a heavy bolter. 9 of them are 90 points, so that's like 3 heavy bolters, yes? But do you know how much a heavy-bolter team for imperial guard is? it's 75 points. the heavy bolter team has slightly better range (altough that's hardly an argument to use them), in cover they have the same save, they are just as dead in close combat (or if they get shot with anything serious) as the tau are, they have same leadership, and oh, they have ap4 instead of ap5. Oh, and the kicker? with orders, the heavy bolter team is probably able to do a far more cost-effective job of getting though a target's cover save than firewarriors with markerlights. And you know what? nobody (I know, anyways) uses heavy-bolter teams because they suck so hard. Even the guy at my club with the huge foot-slogging guard army takes autocannons instead.

What does this mean? if you are arguing they should be more expensive because of their guns, then you condemn them to be forever be be worthless, overpriced junk. you are basically arguing that the leadership 7 bs 3 ws 2 unit should be more expensive than the ld 8 bs4 ws 3 unit because ... the first unit had a heavy bolter-esque gun, kinda?

I'm sorry, but that gun doesn't mean a damn thing if the unit carrying it either needs to buy a 80 point transport or else lose half it's members to a pie plate turn 2.

And frankly, I don't give a damn if it's not fluffy if they had a large squad size, because you know who ARE fluffy? tankbustas and tech-priests and nork-fething-deddog are fluffy. I don't give a damn about "fluffy", I give a damn about "good". Hell not even good, I'm just shooting to make them "mildly useful."

In short, pricing wins out. It doesn't matter if you make firewarriors bs 4 relentless infantry; they still die when people look at them funny, and they are too expensive to compensate for this. Guess what - that makes for a bad unit.

Also, about that last comment: a marine squad is 90 points base with 5 guys. divide this by 5 and you get 18, yet adding marines to the squad costs only 16 points. Stormtroopers from the IG codex have the exact same thing going on. Where is this extra ten points in cost coming from, again? I'll tell you where, it's coming from the fact they build in the point cost of the +1 Ld vet into squads now. This can be found all over both codex's; for another example, assault marines are 100 base (20 a man) but it only costs 18 to add a new squad member. The extra points are going towards the squad leader, so no, that' doesn't check out either.

Alright, the final comment came from misremembered numbers, I withdraw that one, however, It doesn't seem you read my posts any better then you say I read yours. Your original cost argument was based on the cost of veterans with only the caripace upgrade, so I mentioned the effectiveness of veterans with only the caripace upgrade. If you give them carpace & equipment, they are more expensive. Indeed they are more expensive then the same number of firewarriors. Which by the rest of your argument should make them automaticly useless.

At no point have I said that their price should stay the same or increase with the rules they currently have! Indeed, I have repeatidly said they're weapons should become more effective, and/or be given rules which increase their survivablity or effectivness. However, my point to you is that I do not think it is impossable to make an effective 10pt unit that is T3 Armor 4+. Indeed you mention one yourself, Dire advengers. If you do give your firewarriors 2 shot carbines or Heavy 2 Rifles, they are, surpize, better able to kill all forms of infantry then even dire adventures are (w/o bladestorm). And ontop of that, even marines are likely to have to make 2 pinning tests each time the squad fires on them. So don't tell me Str5 Ap5 weapon can't do gak.

I guess you'd never take marines eather, as they'll also easily lose half a squad to a pieplate the first turn. Indeed everyone but the Deathwing's normal troops will take heavy casualties to pieplates. That's why people use the LRMBT. So turn the Tau in to guard, who are cheap enough for you, or into orks with large enough squads to make you happy, if you don't care about the fluff, all your playing is a collection of numbers on a 20mm base. I personaly think there are ways to make Tau good within their fluff and without turning them in to just another version of an army we have already.

Morale checks aside, a squad of vets can lose up to 6 guys (the ones with the lasguns) without there being any real impact on it's firepower, since guard and most other armies have squads built around heavy and special weapons, whereas the uniform nature of firewarriors means that each loss hurts your fire power far more. Additionally, assuming the new markerlight system is at all similar to the old one, larger units will still benefit more from markerlights. it takes 3 markerlights to make 3 squads of 6 bs4, but it only takes one for the 18 man team.

Alright, I'll grant you It does effect marklight use.

kills vs. infantry shooting-wise are likely coming form high strength pie-plates, low ap firepower, or from units that just put out such a massive amount of shots that you can't do anything except inevitably fail saves. (dire avengers and shoota boys come to mind.) Elites kill troops, troops hold objectives. Troops are fire support at best, and when they aren't they get expensive quickly. There is a reason lots of marines lists run a single tact squad in the backfield with a missile launcher or whatever - they CAN give support, but really, they're there to hold an objective. The only exeptions to this rule are things like genestealers, biker nobs, and the like, and guess what, those units are prohibitively expensive points wise.

Excuse me for trying to come up with something that brakes that mold. You know, an army that is based around its troops, and supported by its elites. But if ineffective junk troops who's point is to die is the only way 40k can be played, I guess we better just make a troop that can hold objectives semi-safely from inside cover without costing to much. Oh wait, that's kroot. I'd like to think that the Tau don't have to be built to operate the same way marines do, where the number of troops is minimized. Of course you do mention Dire Advengers, which are troops, and what I personaly have used as a point of comparison to figure out if Fire Warriors become useful. So I'm sorry I don't like your cheap 'fix' but I think there are better options out there for fire warriors.

Oh Yeah? well you know what?

...

I think you're right. I may have actually been completely headed too far in the wrong direction here. Maybe I need to rethink my designs entirely. More to the point, I am very tired and I think I didn't think that last post out enough.

I suppose I am just bored of playing a tau army where it seems like my devilfish does all the fighting and the firewarriors seem to do nothing but act as decorations. But to be frank, this is really the fault of the game mechanics, not the unit itself. so, yeah.

(I still think the special characters are fine, however.)

I agree, I'm annoyed to no end that I have to end up husbanding my fire warriors, when they really should be able to do at least a porition of the fighting. The mechanics, particularly our need to claim with troops has only exagerated the issues that have existed with fire warriors ever sense the troops-push after Tau Empire came out.

In the interest of equal opertunity. I provide here my attempt at fire warriors. Note that they are intended to be used in conjunction with '0-1 super-pathfinders' and devilfish dropped to comperable values to Chimera etc. I've adjusted the price slightly to reflect what Milquetoast brought up with the base points cost. The mission Kit prices are quite likely to high, but it seemed like a better place to start.

Fire Warrior Team (70)

Shas’la WS2, BS3, Str3, T3, W1, I2, A1, LD7, SV 4+
Shas’ui WS2, BS4, Str3, T3, W1, I2, A1, LD8, SV 4+
Shas’vre WS3, BS4, Str3, T3, W1, I3, A1, LD8, SV 4+
Shas’el WS3, BS5, Str5, T3, W2, I3, A2, LD9, SV 4+

Unit Type: Infantry
Unit: Fire Warrior Team consists of 1 Shas’ui and 5 Shas’la Fire Warriors, Troops choice
Equipment: Fire Warrior Armor, Pulse Carbines [Str5, AP5, 18" Assault 2, pinning], Photon Grenades
Special Rules: Bonded
Options:
The Team may add up to 6 additional Shas’la at 10pts/model
The team may add up to two of the following drones: Gun Drone +10pts each, Shield Drone +10pts each, Markerdrone (+15pts each)
The Shas’ui may take a Marklight for 10pts

One shas’ui may be upgraded further upgraded to a Shas’vre for 5pts, if this is done, any number of models can be upgraded to Shas’ui for 2pts/model. In addition, any Fire Warrior teams including a Shas’vre becomes an Elite selection.
One Shas’vre may be upgraded further upgraded to a Shas’el for 25pts, if this is done, any number of Shas’ui can be upgraded to Shas’vre for 1pt/model. The Shas'el gains the 'Cadre Specialization' special rule. In addition, any Fire Warrior team including a Shas’el becomes an HQ selection.

In addition, the team may take one of the following mission kits:
-Fire Support: Pulse Pistols, Replace any number of Pulse Carbines with Pulse Rifles [Str5, AP5, 30" Heavy2] (Free)
-Recon: Stealth, Scout, Move Threw Cover +30pts
-Demolitions: EMP Grenades and Tank Hunters +30pts
-Target Designation: Marklights +30pts
-Assault: Concussion Assault Grenades +20pts [Replaces Pinning with Ignores Cover]
-Suppression: Adhesive Assault Grenades +20pts [Replaces Pinning with moves as though in Difficult Terrain]

The squad may take a Devilfish Transport at the points cost listed below.
The entire unit may take an Orca/Manta Insertion for 20pts.