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Focused, I like the idea of Kroot Psykers, though I'm leery of how you'd implement them.
Are we looking at something akin to old commisars or priests, or more like warlocks? I understand you want them to have Warlock-like powers, but I'm asking if they serve as an upgrade character for kindred, or if you have them as a series of independents that can join and lead kindred.
I kind of like the idea of having them be the latter, with the option of a unit of them. (IN essence, they can form their own seer council) However, that might be a little bit too Eldar.

Nice, but a kroot psyker... I dunno seems more like just include the nicassar.

BTW kroot don't eat nids or chaos because they are 'tainted'

But the eldar are very tasty. So why not? And they where in the codex approved if I remember correctly.

Krellnus-I was aware of the chaos prohibition but not the tyranid one. Where might I find the details of why the kroot wouldn't eat the nids?

guardpiper- you are right about the eldar but please to also not overlook the humans. The race that most of the Tau wars have been fought against.

AllWillFall2Me-I myself am very leery of both doing and how to do this. Something is nagging me to explore the concept though.

Usually, when I have an idea, the concept explodes fully developed in my mind with only a little tweeking needed. Sometimes, however, I have to work at the developement of the concept. This usually happens when I have an issue with something that I have only realised on a sub-concious level. There will be a chance that what-ever I think of will not make it into the fandex but exploring the thought helps me to better define the units.

I first thought of the shaman as an upgrade character that was like the warlock ala the Eldar but, this seems to conflict with the shaper a bit much.

I then thought of doing a shamanic council and again it tresspassed upon the shaper role a bit much and seemed just a lttle too Eldar.

What I'm leaning towards now is that he is an upgrade to the Master Shaper or his shaper council. Maybe treat him/them like advisors?


You see, with things like Lash of submission and the IG psychic choir out there I was looking at maybe tieing beleif in the greater good into some form of defense against such abilities. Every way I've thought of doing this has however come across as unbalanced as either to weak to even be worth mentioning or of a nature that would make your opponents very lactose intolerent.

Now with the kroot I could see them working psychicly much like how they consume DNA. Make it more instinctual. I was thinking that the Shaman could either consume the ability on a certain roll and the enemy psyker in range would be unable to use that particular power again during the game. Or, that the Shaman makes any psyker using a power within range have to take a Perils of the Warp test for any psychic ability used at +1 for each shaman on the battlefield. I'm leaning towards the last due to it being an always on passive ability.

Again, I'm still working it out. I like the idea of something that quietly hunts and consumes the psykers abilities but then you get into the creature being possibly tainted and how much the kroot hate buring a fallen(Tainted) tribe member. This is why I'm leaning towards the passive defense idea.

Let me know what you think. Remember, we could always pull a GW and rewrite the fluff, too.

I think it was in the first Tau codex there was a short story about some Kroot stalking and killing some Tyranids, and the Shaper with them sensing there was something wrong about the Tyranids and they should not be eaten.

The story didn't make much sense as the Kroot power of absorbing genes from things they eat is essentially identical to the Tyranid power of absorbing genes from things they eat. In both cases, the absorption is under some control of the Shapers or the Norn Queens (or whatever.)

Anyhow, back to psychic powers.

The Nicassar could certainly be used to provide the Tau with an offensive power based on teleportation. This would fit existing fluff about the Nicassar using teleportation for space travel.

The Kroot could be allowed to eat some Eldar. This would fit existing fluff (there was a story in the first codex about a bunch of Kroot eating a bunch of Eldar.)

The Tau themselves could provide a defensive power by means of technology -- a portable Geller field for example. This would fit the rapid tech advancement fluff.

Tau troops and Drones could simply be made psychically inert and immune to any mind-bending types of power. This would fit the Tau are psychically inert fluff.

As I mentioned, Special Characters are what I do best, so I decided to look up some potential special characters for Alien allies of the Tau. I didn't want to make Anghor Prak, but Kroot seemed my safest bet in terms of getting it "right". So a quick search of the internet led me to the name Orak, in Kill Team. A quick check of Demonoid got me Kill Team, and a natural reading ability got me an idea of the character. SO, without further ado (Minor spoilers alert):

Orak, Kroot Shaper
Shaper of a mercenary Kindred, Orak is a Kroot on the rise. After the Es’tau assassination of Commander Brightsword, and fighting a bar brawl alongside the Imperium’s famous Last Chancers, Orak led his Kindred to more profitable venues.
Orak is a Kroot name meaning cunning, a trait Orak has shown on multiple occasions. He is also known for his rather quick temper, and the intimidating displays he puts on when angered. Luckily, he is cunning enough to channel his anger, and he has yet to let his anger lead him into a trap.

75 points

Orak WS:5 BS:3 S:4 T:3 W:3 I:5 A:3(4) LD:10 Sv:5+
Hound WS:4 BS:0 S:4 T:3 W:1 I:5 A:2 LD:7 Sv: -
Unit: Infantry(Unique)

Wargear: Frag Grenades, Killer Rifle

Special Rules: Independent Character, Fieldcraft, Infiltrate, Kroot Cunning, Hot-headed

Killer Rifle: Orak has a slightly modified kroot rifle, that fires explosive slugs. Treat this as a boltgun, that provides an additional attack in close combat, as if he wielded two close combat weapons (bonus included in his stat-line).

Kroot Cunning: Rare is the battle that Orak joins without having a plan laid out. He may have the seize initiative die re-rolled, whether he or his opponent is seizing. Furthermore, at the cost of +2 points a model, any Kroot Carnivore squad may be given the Scout USR.

Hot-headed: Orak often loses his temper in combat, which is why he has taken pains to consume species known for ferocious combat, and quick movements. He, and any Kroot unit he joins, has the Fleet and Furious Charge special rules.

Retinue: If you wish, you may field Orak with up to 4 Kroot Hounds as a retinue, at the cost of 7 points a hound. This follows the standard rules of a retinue.






So, my self-dissection, as it were. Sadly, there was no discussion of Orak's fighting style or ability in the novel, so I had little to go on there. The Stat-line is Kompletely Kroot's codex's default Master Shaper stat-line.
The stat-line aside, I deliberately avoided involving or describing standard Kroot or Tau rules, as without seeing fan-dices, (if codices is the plural of codex...) I didn't want to step on any toes.

He's not too showy, as I had little character to build off of, but I think he has some really cool stuff. He showed in the novel a very intelligent and thoughtful demeanor, which when matched with his name of "Cunning", I figured I had to make a rule for. He also reacts angrily several times in the novel, and indeed he seemed highly impressive when angry, so another rule addition.


My major concerns: Hot-headed makes him great at CC. Which, well, he's Kroot. I am slightly worried about the balance of it, but here's my argument.

Most of my balance ideas were taken from Kompletely Kroot, as my roommate has tried their codex, and we've found it to be rather stable. In that codex, for his statline, and a kroot rifle, he'd be 40 points. Frag grenades would be +1 A kroothawk charm (re-roll initiative) 20, a storm bolter (better than his gun) +5 points and fleet another 5. So, by that count, he'd have 71 points, with 4 left over for the option to upgrade kroot and Furious charge. Now, I see the upgrade as good for Kroot, and playing up the Cunning aspect by allowing cool outflanking plans, but generally self-contained. Paying ten points a model for a unit without an armor save seemed a little much to me. Counter-arguments are welcome.

My personal idea is maybe I should limit the Hot-headed bonus to only him and if he takes his retinue, them.

But, if you all think it's fine as is, it'll stand. If not, well, you guys are the Tau experts, as far as I'm concerned.

That would probably work pretty well actually.

I liked your concept, only one part of your post made me laugh:

AllWillFall2Me wrote:
My personal idea is maybe I should limit the Hot-headed bonus to only him and if he takes his retinue, them.

Orak and his hot-headed Kroot Hound retinue?? lulz.

Kilkrazy wrote:I think it was in the first Tau codex there was a short story about some Kroot stalking and killing some Tyranids, and the Shaper with them sensing there was something wrong about the Tyranids and they should not be eaten.

The story didn't make much sense as the Kroot power of absorbing genes from things they eat is essentially identical to the Tyranid power of absorbing genes from things they eat. In both cases, the absorption is under some control of the Shapers or the Norn Queens (or whatever.)

Anyhow, back to psychic powers.

The Nicassar could certainly be used to provide the Tau with an offensive power based on teleportation. This would fit existing fluff about the Nicassar using teleportation for space travel.

The Kroot could be allowed to eat some Eldar. This would fit existing fluff (there was a story in the first codex about a bunch of Kroot eating a bunch of Eldar.)

The Tau themselves could provide a defensive power by means of technology -- a portable Geller field for example. This would fit the rapid tech advancement fluff.

Tau troops and Drones could simply be made psychically inert and immune to any mind-bending types of power. This would fit the Tau are psychically inert fluff.

I agree with every part of this post. When contemplating future Tau pychic status and how they are going to deal with such, I came to the very same conclusions. I am just struggling as to which direction.

I have decided that If I run a Kroot Shaman that he will be an upgrade charcter to the Shaper council HQ that I am writing up. Still haven't figured if they will be advisors or just parts of the retinue that give army bonuses or something.


@AllWillFall2Me- I'm looking at giving the Kroot furious assault either as an evolutionary upgrade or through a spicific shaper Special character. Haven't decided which way I'm goint to go as of yet but your Orak would be a great candidate.

I think that I'd change the retinue to where he is always accompanied by the extra hounds yet he may still join any kroot unit. Tell mw what you think then lets see if we can tweek him just a littlemore. As-is he is a fairly good SC.

dietrich wrote:In regards to markerlights. Pathfinders are described in the fluff as 'pulling their cadre forward to battle'. So, it seems they're some sort of advanced scout and/or forward observer for the army. But, since they're the cheapest source of markerlights, what do people do? Hide them in the back in cover and/or surrounded by some FWs or Kroot, and let a 6-man FW team hide in their Devilfish to claim an objective. So, to me, that means that Pathfinders don't work according to their fluff, and they should be revamped, and part of that likely includes changing the markerlight. Those are things that I hope get corrected.

idk about you but i kinda run my pathfinders up a little for my markerlights to hit my opponent

though sometimes they die (almost always, i havnt won yet )

I say change the markerlights and increase the firewarriors BS by 1 or 2

Make it so that instead of pathfinders rail-rifles coming with target lock they come with targetting array (makes sense if you were a sniper)

Fire Caste Tactical Strike Team (Elites Choice)

Shas'vre WS3 BS3(4) S3 T3 W1 A1(2) I3 Ld8 Sv4+
SHas'la WS3 BS4(5) S3 T3 W1 A1(3) I3 Ld8 Sv4+
Tac Drone WS2 BS2(3) S3 T3 W1 A1 I3 Ld8 Sv4+

Equipment:
Fire Caste: Pulse Rifle, Pulse Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Fire Caste Armor, distributed drone controller, targeting array
Tactical Drone: twin-linked pulse carbine, targeting array, drone armor
Special Rules: Bonded, AI Dependant, Combat Squads
Organization: 1 Shas'vre, 4 Shas'la, 1 Tactical Drone

Options:
You may add an addtional Tactical Strike Team for x points
*Any Fire Caste may exchange his Pulse Rifle for a Rail Rifle at x points
*the Shas'vre may take a Networked Marker Light for x points
*The Tactical Drone may exchagne its twin-linked pulse carbines for:
*Flamer
*Fusion gun
*Plasma Rifle
*Missile Pod
*Burst Cannon
*Devilfish transport at x points

The Tau Fire Caste has had to adapt new tactics when encountering new enemies. The Tactical Strike team adds a Tactical Drone with XV8 weaponry in exchagne for its mobility. These smaller indepentendly deployed teams can bring their specialized firepower to bear quickly, without having to wait for a XV team to support them. They are often deployed to hot spots in Devilfish transports. While most Tau disdain close combat, these Fire Warriors train in close combat tactics in odrer to stand a fighting chance against the enemies of the Greater Good who do not share their feelings.

I don't have my codex with me, so I can't work out all the points.

AI Dependant: When the last Fire Caste member is removed from the game, the Tactical Drone is also removed if it is still in play.
Drone Armor: Standard armor for drones, confers a 4+ Armor Save.
Distributed Drone Controller: This distributed AI matrix allows the the drone to be directed by any member of the squad.

ishantil wrote:Fire Caste Tactical Strike Team (Elites Choice)

Shas'vre WS3 BS3(4) S3 T3 W1 A1(2) I3 Ld8 Sv4+
SHas'la WS3 BS4(5) S3 T3 W1 A1(3) I3 Ld8 Sv4+
Tac Drone WS2 BS2(3) S3 T3 W1 A1 I3 Ld8 Sv4+

Equipment:
Fire Caste: Pulse Rifle, Pulse Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Fire Caste Armor, distributed drone controller, targeting array
Tactical Drone: twin-linked pulse carbine, targeting array, drone armor
Special Rules: Bonded, AI Dependant, Combat Squads
Organization: 1 Shas'vre, 4 Shas'la, 1 Tactical Drone

Options:
You may add an addtional Tactical Strike Team for x points
*Any Fire Caste may exchange his Pulse Rifle for a Rail Rifle at x points
*the Shas'vre may take a Networked Marker Light for x points
*The Tactical Drone may exchagne its twin-linked pulse carbines for:
*Flamer
*Fusion gun
*Plasma Rifle
*Missile Pod
*Burst Cannon
*Devilfish transport at x points

The Tau Fire Caste has had to adapt new tactics when encountering new enemies. The Tactical Strike team adds a Tactical Drone with XV8 weaponry in exchagne for its mobility. These smaller indepentendly deployed teams can bring their specialized firepower to bear quickly, without having to wait for a XV team to support them. They are often deployed to hot spots in Devilfish transports. While most Tau disdain close combat, these Fire Warriors train in close combat tactics in odrer to stand a fighting chance against the enemies of the Greater Good who do not share their feelings.

I don't have my codex with me, so I can't work out all the points.

Thoughts?

Doesn't seem like a bad idea, but does need some clarification.
(1) From the stats and weapons, it seems like you are talking about a Fire Warrior elite squad?
(2) If the team is so dependent on the drone for heavy support, why is it's BS so terrible?
(3)There are several rules that I have not yet seen that you will have to explain: "AI Dependent" and "Drone Armor"

All in all, that seems like a good start.

Drones according to current codices, have a BS of 2. This is of course, radically contrary to the fluff, stating that drones are extremely accurate, especially the seeker missiles.

I added a targeting array, much like a Sniper Drone is.

Making Networked and other marker lights more accessable and cheaper is a good way to make up for the lack of higher BS.

ishantil wrote:Drones according to current codices, have a BS of 2. This is of course, radically contrary to the fluff, stating that drones are extremely accurate, especially the seeker missiles.

I added a targeting array, much like a Sniper Drone is.

Making Networked and other marker lights more accessable and cheaper is a good way to make up for the lack of higher BS.

True. Oddly enough the Seeker missiles are said to use "Drone intelligence" to guide them, yet they hit more often than Drones???
Strange, but true.

I updated the post. sorry, I forgot. Brainstorming does that. I thought of these guys on the way home from work.

Yeah, in reality, the Tau would manufacture those drones by the thousand and unleash them on their enemies.

Shas'o: "Wait, we can MAKE these things by the dozen? Why have I only been tasked with 8?"
Earth Caste: "Politics, sir. GW says we can only bring like 20. We've got our lobbyists working on it, but so far...."
Shas'o: "Bah. Politics. Keeps us from stomping those impertinent humans."

I want some Vespid troops. Maybe some form of lesser Vespid strain that was meant to only defend the home colony and therefore cannot fly...but since Vespid can travel around with the tau in their big ships of warpyness they are used as CC meatshields for the Tau. Make them cost more then kroot. Give them rending, and claws that count as 2 CC weps. High Strength/Toughness low Init/LD (they are the dregs of Vespid society). I have the more complete suggestion posted somewhere on LO...but I don't feel like finding it right now.

Also I am a noob so...feel free to ignore everything I just said.

Pulse Carbines Assault 2

Tau Jump Packers:

Tau Rapid Strike Team:

WS:3 BS:3 S:2 T:3 I:4 W:1 A:1 Ld:7 Sv:4+

Size: 1 Shas'ui and 5 Shas'la

Type: Jump Infantry

Equipment: Photon and EMP grenades, Fire caste Armour, Twin Pulse Pistols, Jump Pack

Options: May Purchase an extra six Shas'la for x points, Up to 4 (not Shas'ui) may replace their twin pulse pistols with either a; flamer or pulse carbine.

Rules:
Assault Experts: Have the relentless special rule may outflank in addition, they may always choose which side to come on from.

Fire it up!: In a turn where the unit has not moved (whether voluntary or involuntary *edit* but only if it can shoot as well [yes, that means pinning]) , it may fire twice with all its weapons.

Krellnus wrote:
Fire it up!: In a turn where the unit has not moved (whether voluntary or involuntary) , it may fire twice with all its weapons.

So a unit that can fire all of it's weapons (heavy/rapid fire) regardless of movement, and can still fire when pinned?
Granted, it seemed like most, if not all of their weapons were assault.

But a unit that can fire when pinned? Hmmmmmm, just think of what you're poking at here, and how powerful that rule is.

New special rule for Firewarriors and pathfinders only.

Name - Total Humiliation

Effect - If the tau unit wins a sweeping advance, regardless of any special rules or abilities the enemy unit is removed from the table. All enemy models within LOS to the combat must make a successful LD check or be immediately pinned.

Fluff - The loosing unit is so ashamed that they actually lost a HTH combat to Tau firewarriors that they no longer have the will to continue on with the fight and shuffle dejectedly off the battlefield with their heads held low. Any of the enemies comrads who witness the total humiliation of their fellow squad mates must bolster their reserves to avoid falling into a fit of laughter or just standing still in stunned silence.


Hehehehehe... I was bored at work today, can you tell?

The Tau need the ability to take an all drone army. I'll call it "Project Skynet"

Che-Vito wrote:

Krellnus wrote:
Fire it up!: In a turn where the unit has not moved (whether voluntary or involuntary) , it may fire twice with all its weapons.

So a unit that can fire all of it's weapons (heavy/rapid fire) regardless of movement, and can still fire when pinned?
Granted, it seemed like most, if not all of their weapons were assault.

But a unit that can fire when pinned? Hmmmmmm, just think of what you're poking at here, and how powerful that rule is.

Doh! Sorry that was in my RAI not RAW (I had to write this in like 5 min) I'll change it right now

Yes all their weapons are assault I mean seriously if you are flying around at 60 kp/h would you want to tug around a plasma weapon or something similar?

So, just a basic idea about the carbine; which I have not been able to drop. It came to me when I though about the problem of the overlapping roles stealthsuits and pathfinders have.

The basic idea is simple: the carbine is pinning because it is simultaneously firing a photon grenade from it's underslung grenade launcher. ...But what about other grenade types? You'd think the earth caste would think about putting actual, you know, grenades and such in there. suddenly, you have a reasonable justification to mess with the rules for the gun.

First, off an issue with range - the gun could stand to be assault 24''. most guns at 18'' are getting either ap4 or better, (see: hellgun, sternguard) or multiple shots (see: ork shoota, shuruken catapult). The carbine has none of that; so increasing the range to 24'' would a good tentative step towards making the gun useful - rifles would still be taken for rapid-fire properties, and well, a tau gun SHOULD be better at 24'' than a bolter or a lasgun. the assault properties would make it viable for a gunline army (if those ever get back in style) or it could be simply used to allow for safer range on Fof attacks; while the alt-fire modes would make it worthwhile as an alternative to the sheer weight of fire a rifle would give at 12''.

So, the basic statline would be something like this, for firewarriors: 2 firing modes.

photon: the carbine fires a photon grenade designed to confuse and disorient the enemy.

24'' S5 Ap5 assault 1, pinning; any unit that is hit by a carbine moves as though it was in difficult terrain next turn.
[note this assumes that firewarriors start with photon grenades for free, just like how guardsmen always have frags.]

Airburst (frag): The carbine fires a small timed fragmentation round designed to flush enemies from cover

18'' S5 Ap5 assault 1, pinning, no cover saves.

[note lowered range, since it's firing an airburst; and be aware this is not to be game breaking - but it's not useless just because it's not ap4. Even against 4+ save troops it would useful as you'd deny them a save bonus from going to round, for instance, or if they become pinned - why should a unit BENEFIT from getting shot at by tau guns?]

EMP (pathfinders/bodyguards only): The carbine fires an especially designed EMP dart that is designed to damage and disable delicate machinery. This is a special issue item only assigned to squads that have proved their worth to the fire caste.

12'' S2 Ap* assault 1.
All rounds fired this way vs. vehicles glance on a 3+ and pen on a 6+, regardless of it's armor value.

[I'm toying with the following ideas for this gun:
18'' range?
once a game only?
ap1 for damage results?
reroll damage result, pick highest?
two-man-a-squad upgrade for firewarriors? shas'ui's?
I'm not really sure. advice would be welcomed.]

Anyways, that's all I got for now I can probably get around to re-writing rules for pathfinders/stealthsuits/sniperteams before long. Also, I think kroot psykers are a little silly and in the wrong direction, since I play tau (and by extension, mech guard) because of their technological appeal; the lack of "A WIZARD DID IT" in the army makes it more appealing to me, than say, mech eldar, whose tanks appear to be powered by rainbows and unicorns, or chaos, whose tanks run ground-up slayer albums.

This is my best attempt to be comprehensive on the changes that could/would/should be seen in a 5thed version of the Tau Codex. I’ve deliberately left large parts of it vague, as I don’t have the time or capacity to number-crunch and/or play-test enough to make absolute changes or pts values or new units. Going threw this I tried to sick as close to the fluff & new style of GW as possible…

Army Wide:
-Veteran Progression
--It seems to me that, for an army that spends all it’s time shooting, they don’t get very good at it. I don’t mind the basic Fire Warriors (who, by fluff, are 12 years old) being BS3, but I’d like to see veteran Tau get better at hitting what they’re shooting at. Although it might be considered extreme, +1BS each time would work. Shas’la BS3, Shas’ui BS4, Shas’vre BS5, Shas’el BS6, Shas’o BS7. This would represent not only their personal skill, but also there targeting computers, increased access to hardwired systems and skill at using these technological aides. Because the high BSs already account for it, targeting arrays should be removed as a battlesuit option. On the other hand, veteran fire warriors don’t need to be as good at CC as they are, -1 attack to Shas’ui and above would work. (and before you go “OMG that’s so broken!”, This would have pts increases with it, particularly on the upper levels)

-Morale
--Having leaders standard will at least raise the effective leadership of basic Fire Warriors from 7 to 8, which is reasonable.
--Bonding should be default for all Tau units. This gives us an advantage over guardsmen (who have officers instead)
--Given the relative points cost of many of our models, Tau eat it in sweeping advance. I’d be nice to have a ‘run away’ intuitive bonus, like +2. Which gives us an even chance against most armies, and a reason to take larger squads, rather then smaller ones.

-Tanks
--Why are tanks always crewed by the worst shooters in the army? Tau vehicles should have massive targeting computers, make them all BS 4 standard, with BS 5 available for veteran crews/advanced tanks.
--Disruption pods are now to good, need to go up by 10pts
--Seeker missiles are to wimpy. They hit no harder then a guardsman’s RPG. Ord. AP 1 (like the Hellstrike) would be good.

-Crisis Battlesuits: (There are arguably the most Iconic unit in the Tau army)
--Vectored Thrust should be wargear, not a suit system
--Command Node should proved a radius LD bonus
--An AP3 that isn’t as heavy as the plasma rifle’d be nice
--BS change as above (and some pt increases)
--Plasma Rifle can lower its relative cost
--Ability to Duel Weald (shadowsun style) would also be nice.

-Wargear
--Carbines could use a little help – pinning is to hard to pull of against anyone these days, and the ability to now move and rapid fire makes them seem a little weak against the Rifle. Assault 2 would likely work, as would grenade options.
--Cyclic Ion Blaster could be simplified to rending or just given a good AP (like 3)
--SMS could stand to drop a few points or go up a few missiles
--Now that jetpacks are Relentless, we could see some heavy weapons for Drones or Suits
--Lets just have attached drones not take up transport space or remove IC status, but in all other ways count as part of the unit. (simplification)

HQ:
-Shas’o
--I’d like to see them get some kind of meta-game rules to represent them having command over more then just their Cadre.
-Shas’el
--I’d like to see them able to take alternate battlesuits (such as stealth suits) w/o being a special character. Some army-composition changing rules based on wargear might be cool to.
-Etherial
--Remove LOS from Inspiring. They know he’s there, that should be enough. Let his honor-guard count as a scoring unit. (or have him just modify a normal FW troop). I’d like to see a little hasher price of falure, such as “Tau units that make their moral check are pinned instead as they recover from the shock of the ethereal’s death” The post death bonus should also be shooting related, not Favored Enemy. The codex specifically talks about how they don’t run in to CC when an ethereal dies. Perhaps +1 to hit etc.
-New
--Tau need another HQ choice, as fluff-wise there should only be 1 commander, and Ethereals aren’t ever-present. I’d suggest a few ‘allied commanders’ such as a Human Aux commander or a Kroot Master Shaper.

Elites:
-Crisis Suits & Stealth Suits
--Just as noted in the Army-wide section
-New
--A non-suit elite might be interesting, like a 2-tau specialized weapons team. (EMP missiles, Marksmen snipers etc)
--Can anyone think of a 3rd type of battlesuit that isn’t a heavy support type?

Troops:
-Fire Warriors
--Leader & Photon grenades should be included (it’s the way all the armies are going). The addition of a couple unit-wide upgrade possibilities would create some variation. Fluff wise, all FW who aren’t in devilfish are deployed by Orca or Manta – some kind of DS option might represent that. They could use a small points reduction in the face of modern Troops choices.
-Devilfish
--Cheaper, it’s the way all transports are going. Some kind of Turbo-boost redeployment option would be kinda cool, something to distinguish them from a hovercraft Chimera
-Kroot
--Replace Fieldcraft w/ Stealth & Move threw Cover. (They hide in rocks and buildings well to according to fluff). Make the Shaper a little better (like a witchblade) or just cheaper. Krootox either need infiltrate or something to make them worth not outflanking or infiltrating your Kroot squad.
-Human Auxileries
--Reduce cost, remove hated by imperials, give them some weapons options or bump up their lasgun.
-New
--Doesn’t really seem to need it, unless they come up with a cool new alien.

Fast Attack
-Pathfinders
--Make the transport non-mandatory, photon grenades standard. In all honesty, these guys could be shifted to troops – they take the fast out of fast attack pretty quick. (Actually the attack to, as they’re support troops)
-Drone Squadrens
--Points Reduction, Specialist or Heavy drones?
-Piranhas
--minor points reduction, scout
-Vespid
--Points reduction, better armor and/or a jump-back rule.
-New
--A fast vehicle that’s hardier then the Piranha would be nice. Forge World’s Heavy Gun Drones could work as FA also. Or some kind of super-fish mounted carbine FW.

Heavy Support
-Sniper Drones
--? (haven’t tried them yet)
-Broadside
--S&P standard and not taking up a battlesuit slot, that’s about all they need.
-Hammerhead
--The base tank is quite solid, but now that skimmer isn’t all that different, they need a price brake or a little bonus. It’s said to be the equal to the LRMBT, lets see it.
--Ion Cannon needs help. In the new world of AP3 weapons, it’s equal to a sponson weapon, not a main cannon. Give it more shots or blasts.
--Raingun – good but they must have done something when they scaled it up that much, give it something over Broadsides, like Tank Hunter.
--More cannon options wouldn’t hurt.
-Skyray
--Make it a hammerhead option
--If it’s not shooting planes, it could use heavier missiles, how ‘bout something with some power behind it. (like the upgraded Seekers listed above) Or give it the Alpha strike option of firing any number of missile on a single marklight hit.
-New
--Don’t really need anything more, A MBT & Heavy infantry cover everything mobile enough to fit in the fluff, unless you start talking Air Support. Though the ability to buy Airstrikes would be pretty awesome. (Spend a marklight hit, airstrike goes off like a manticore missile etc…)


P.S. I like your carbine ideas Thug. Looking at the fluff, particularly the pictures, the carbine seems to be an even more quiticential weapon then the rifle does.

I don't know how I feel about disruption pods going up in points like everyone says (no one even cared about them in 4th edition even though they were just as good). They're smoke launchers that work every turn, sure, but they have the serious flaw of not functioning in melta range / rapid fire range, the place where you might need it most. They're going to be required on every vehicle even if they do go up in points, so I wouldn't want more expensive d-pods to just cancel out less expensive vehicles and leave everything costing the same in the end. Every other army seems to get smoke launchers for free while their vehicles go down in points at the same time.

@Mars Drones don't take away IC fully.

Codex:Tau Empire wrote:Unless accompanied by a bodyguard the commander is an independent character. If accompanied by drones, he may still join other units as an IC

How about giving the ethereals some armour like the one on the cover of the codex.
Limit Pathfinders 0-1 choices outside FOC with following deployment rules:

After deployment, but before scout and infiltration you must deploy your pathfinders in the following manner.
The pathfinders must be deployed anywhere on the board so long as it is 18" away from friendly units (to represent them bringing the cadre forward). Also on the first player turn any Tau units in reserve may deepstrike or outflank on a 5+
Pathfinders MUST BE SET UP THIS WAY. This overrides the set-up rules for all missions.

I would also like some unique mech styles like outflanking for all suits and devilfish or something similar instead of standard mech or transport rush.

For the disruption pods, I guess it depends on if we consider them the tau version of smoke launchers or extra armor. (one became standard, the other became expensive)

I think we really need more then a max 1 Pathfinder squad (at least unless we give other locations to get marklights) They would work as a out of FOC unit though, as the army is suposed to be the Hunter Cadre, and pathfinders are generaly outside that.

Krellinus: That seems slightly overcomplicated. pathfinders are troops; that's about it.

A note about the current structure of the Tau codex: it's disoriented and poorly designed. Basically, to compare the relative roles of firewarriors, pathfinders, and stealthsuits, simply look at the following comparisons:

Space Marines - Scout Marines - Sternguard Vets - Devastator Squads

Guard Platoons - Veteran Guardsmen - Stormtroopers - Heavy Weapon Teams

Firewarriors/Kroot - Pathfinders - Stealthsuits - Crisis suits

The 1st choice is always one taken because it is "beefier" or more survivable in terms of it's armor or squad size. Marines have a better save than scouts; platoons are bigger and harder to eliminate than vets. Likewise, Firewarriors have a large squad size than pathfinders and are cheaper by 2 points. Kroot have a massive squad size and are in the great scheme of things, dirt cheap compared to pathfinders and firewarriors. In each cae - tacticals, firewarriors, platoons - These are what we may call "manpower units"; they are taken because they have a perceived better ability to hold on to an objective; a superior choice of weapon (note this is subverted with guard) and are either superior in either statline OR price. Note that tacticals are probably the best unit listed in this category, for various reasons.

the 2nd choice is always a alternative troop choice (or at least, should be a troop choice) taken because of it's support qualities. scout are excellent support units, but armies of nothing but scout only really work when you put a lot of points into thing like terminators and such, as you sacrifice manpower and muscle? why the reason is usually flexibility. These units also usually have some way to compensate for a lower squad size, which is usually a unique firepower option and a better cover save (although vets can get a 4+ save. the cover save is still better.) For instance: Scouts marines can infiltrate, and have a number of extremely useful USR to help them out; they can get poisoned heavy bolters and sniper rifles...and are frankly probably the best unit listed in this category. Veteran guardsmen have better BS; can get a better cover save; have more special weapon slots which equals more flexability (or reliability if you take 3 of the same, which really equals a unique firepower option). They are better for mechanized guard lists. But pathfinders? well... they have scout. and markerlights. they're good at the "support" part, but the "holding objectives" part, the "flexibility part" , and even the better firepower part they fail miserably. (they have a mandatory fish! come on! what if you want an infantry only army to dilute the other guy's anti-tank weapons?) Hence, why a good start would be to move them to troops and give them unique options for their carbines.

the 3rd choice is usually a unit that as above, has unique deployment options, but it also has vastly superior firepower, because it's not suppose to take objectives; it's designed to kill the living gak out of the enemy. I mean just look at the choices: vanguard and stormies both get ap3 options at 18'', stealths just pelt the living crap out of stuff with burst cannons. stormies and stealths both have unique deployment options. stormies and stealths both have superior armor saves than is expected in their army. Thing is however, stealths, as an elite choice, are not really as good at killing things as their counterparts here. they're bs3, and they have a gun that i just like a firewarrior's carbine, except it just... has more shots. this is rather lame. the night fight rules are nice, however, but they need more firepower. fortunately, there is an obvious location for them to get it; sniper drones. (the SNT spotter can become a squad upgrade for pathfinders, for all I care.) Oh, and vanguard are the best here, again.

The 4th choice is simple. they carry heavy weapons. they can blow stuff up. Well, kinda. Granted, crisis suits are the best option here, for a change, but they ironically, lack anything that really kills tanks good except for a melta- er I mean "fusion gun". it's lame. I can understand keeping these guys from the railguns; thet's why we have broadsides, but come on, you mean to tell me the earth caste can't strap seekers-in-a-tube on these guys? I'd love to see suits with disposable missile launcher tubes as a 10-point wargear thing;, even if it was one shot only, particularly since it would syngerize so well with almost all their existing choices for guns.

Anyways, what can we take from this?
1: The H.M.B.C. theorem is proven once again; GW can't write rules to save their lives.
2: pathfinders need to be redesigned. Stealths and Crisis suits just need a couple extra weapon options and stat tweaks. Firewarriors probably need a price drop; since they're priced like a "support"-style troop choice when they are clearly meant to be a "muscle" troop choice
3: GW always give marines the best fething toys. Crisis suits are "accidentally" good, since heavy weapon teams are normally sub-par choices. This is kinda sad, isn't it?

So anyways, to start:

Crisis suits could use seeker missiles so they can really kill tanks dead. BS4 would be nice.
Stealths could use sniper drones so they can really kill troop choices dead. Bs4 would be peachy keen.
firewarriors need to be better able to survive. They are "the beefy choice" they need effective ld 8 from a built-in squad leader (making them base points 70) and probably a price drop. carbines could use fixing, but that's neither here nor there. When a model with no armor save is a better choice economically, something is wrong with the unit.
Pathfinders need to be rebuilt from the ground up.

(as an aside, carbines, now that I think of it, are fine at 18'', as long as they're assault 2. why is a rifle being used for close-quarter engagements all the time, anyways? the rifle will still be used in those silly gunline armies anyways for the extra range. the extra grenade options, like airburst and EMP, would be limited to pathfinders.)

for the record, just to prevent too much over ap, a few notes on roles of pathfinders vs stealths (and kroot, I guess)

USR
Move though cover? Yes for kroot and pathfinders, no for stealths.
Stealth? Yes for stealths, yes for kroot, maybe as squad upgrade for pathfinders (remember those sniper team leaders lugging around those stealth field generators? this is where they belong.)
Infiltrate? Yes for stealth and kroot; maybe for pathfinders.
Scout? no for kroot and stealths, yes for pathfinders.

Now,this allow for a lot of outflankers, doesn't it? but here's the thing - tau are a mobile army to being with, so I have no issue with this. If they must ave a gimmick beyond having overrated guns and a phobia of getting all sweaty in close combat, then it might as well be that they have a lot of fething outflankers.

as for the pathfinders: a new proposed stat block:

Statline: same as before, but ld8 from built-in shas'ui, and squad is bs 4 (they're scout-snipers practically. they're more expensive. it's a shooty army. small squad size. what more do I have to say here?)

Troop Choice
Composition: 4 pathfinders + 1 shas'ui.
70 points.
USR: move thugh over, scout
wargear: Special-issue carbines, bonding knife, photon grenades
Assault 2 18'' s5 ap5 with underslung markerlights and grenade launchers.

Options:
the squad may take up to 5 extra members for 12 points each
the squad may take a orbital relay for 15 points (this is the reroll scatter die thing)
the squad may take up to 3 railrifles for 10 points each.
The squad may take drones as usual, etc etc.
the squad may take a stealth generator (+1 cover; night fight to shoot) for 20 points.
the squad may take airburst grenades (also counts as frags) for 1 points a model (not drones).
the squad may take emp darts (also count as EMP grenades) for 2 points a model (not drones).
the squad may take a devilfish with all the usual trimmings, blah blah. Yes, it may outflank.
the squad may take a bunch of other crappy options that GW will throw in there for no reason except to fill space and keep the conversion-obsessives busy.

and...done. There you have it, how pathfinders wuld look in perfect world. Will this happen? my guess: hell no. GW making progress? if anything, they'll probably make them troops, but then bump their price to 18 points each or something really stupid like that.

Anyways I have to stop writing this on work hours, so give me your thoughts.

So... To further my point of view that the Tau codex is just freakin' dandy, have any of you guys been noting the changes in the meta game lately? Tau keep coming out more and more on top.

Kungfuhustler wrote:So... To further my point of view that the Tau codex is just freakin' dandy, have any of you guys been noting the changes in the meta game lately? Tau keep coming out more and more on top.

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