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Now. Everyone says that thunderfires are bad. But I remain unconvinced. I think that it's just a matter of placement, and that they ca be really effective.

Dissuade me please.

Your mileage may vary, depending on size of armies, terrain on the boards you are playing on, victory conditions in use-the so called 'metagame'. Might work against certain opponents, not as well against others.

Good news, they outrange Lootas, hurray, a potential anti-ork unit. They can fire from behind cover as well, yes?

Downside, infiltrating Ork Kommandos can come in from rear edge. Could make it hard to protect the unit. Stelek (his wife recently had a miscarriage by the way, he deserves condolences), once posted an IG list with multiple Mortar units to provide the anti-horde effect. You might want to compare cost of a Thunderfire vs. an equivalent template number of IG mortars to see whether you are at the same cost effectiveness.

Drop pod assault is very cruel against any unit set up on the board. And, if this is a heavy choice you need to consider whether a single large blast template a la Whirlwind, which should hit 3 figures minimum, is better than the the 4 small templates which on a spread out unit only get 1 figure each as a minimum.

Not sure that the weapon would be effective against Daemons either, meaning you are now playing against a Daemon army but several points down, and you've given them a target to shoot at or drop at as well.

So, I think it needs experimentation; and a description of how you would fit it into your whole army.

The big problem is that the gun is not indirect fire.

Sure you have long range but that means there is more to get in the way and use cover saves. Fortunately this only retards the S6 ammo variant, the other two dont care about that.

So once an enemy gets a bead on you the Thunderfire Cannon dies quickly. The cannon itself is very fragile but if you are firing long range guns, lascannon in particular, either target effectively dies on a hit. Thjougfh you need a 2+ kill for the techmarine himself.

In any event do not count the 60" range for survival. This allows you to cover the whole board from one board edge, as the strandard play surface is still only 48" wide ordinary heavy weapons will be able to shoot you if you can shoot them.

i am, not saying dont take Thunderfire cannon; just dont overinvest, one is enough even against those enemies its is best used against, namely orks and nids.

Though I will say dont bother with the crap model, I use a Thudd gun for mine, at least that stays together.

Orlanth wrote:The big problem is that the gun is not indirect fire.

i am, not saying dont take Thunderfire cannon; just dont overinvest, one is enough even against those enemies its is best used against, namely orks and nids.

This was the same thing you said with the Sternguard units, the "less is more" approach. It seems to me that if you're going to take these things, then take 3 for the paltry 300 points. They basically amount to a free techmarine, and you could bolster up to 3 pieces of terrain in your DZ for extra entrenched-ness. The Thunderfire suffers from a basic weakness: a bigass model and AV10. In my experience, the worst thing you can do if you want to field a fragile unit is to take just one; this makes for nothing more than a huge, easily destroyed target. I would fully expect one Thunderfire to be shot off the board on your opponent's Turn 1. It's a lot harder to nail all 3.

It's a lot harder to nail all 3.

unless of course your playing an army with a high Str pie plate or 2.
with such a low AV your throwing points away as it is, 3 of them is just crazy.
most people will pick up on how easy to kill they are and remove them fairly quickly.

i'd take 3 vindicators or whirls instead.

The amount of shooting you have to waste to take out 3 Thunderfires in 3+ Cover is considerable. If you're going to use them at all, take 3. In the same vein, if your opponent is wasting "high strength pie plates" on what amounts to a techmarine with a 50 point upgrade, you should be praising Jesus while your tactical marines close in with their meltabombs.

Now, if the debate is between Thunderfires versus other Heavy choices, that's another topic entirely.

ok clams, take orks asan example.
killkannons or boombguns will remove the thunders pretty quickly, maybe even lootas if needed.

tac marines with melta bombs are little or nothing to 90 or so orks.

and yes, i think it is worth shooting the thunders, they will start to get annoying pretty fast when used against orks.

Uh, you just illustrated my point perfectly. One Thunderfire will be blown off the table before it can do anything. Three will allow 1-2 to stick around and kill enough Orks to actually be useful.

Also if you take 3 and stick a couple in a ruin, make the save 2+ using the tech marines they will be a bitch to take out

Uh, you just illustrated my point perfectly. One Thunderfire will be blown off the table before it can do anything. Three will allow 1-2 to stick around and kill enough Orks to actually be useful.

i didnt say 1 will get blown off of the table atall.
and it all depends on what hits it.
a killkannon or boomgun could take out all 3 with some luck.

if you want the easy option just collect daemons like i do.
deepstriking units with ranged attacks wouldnt have a problem wih the thunders.

Keep in mind that the tech marine with the thunderfire has bolster defenses, so placing him and the canon in a ruin with ample cover should make it that much harder to kill them both. If we break it down into IG Lascannons..

2 shots per hit
2 shots to land a shot on the gun
2 shots to get by the 4+ cover granted by the ruin

Roughly 8 IG lascannons to take down the thunderfire. The Techmarine himself is sitting in a bolstered ruin benefitting from a 2+inv save, making him virtually unkillable. The gun is really much more vulnerable to heavy anti infantry fire like autocanons or assault canons that can mass hits into the unit.

Considering a techmarine with a servoharness is 75 points, the guns effective cost is 25. I think thats damn cheap for how much damage it can cause in one round of shooting. The big problem is that its replacing another possible heavy support choice, so its not going to be good in all lists.

a killkannon or boomgun could take out all 3 with some luck.

Which is why you don't put them in the same place...?

I've been looking at this option as well. Granted, I've not played it out yet, but seems to have possibility.

3 Thunderfires set up in cover to get the 3+ cover save.
3 Venerable Dreadnoughts (shooty style) with them also benefitting from the cover save.

Granted, it is a bit terrain dependent, but it does give a decent amount of fire that is surprisingly difficult to dislodge.

the bottom line is: are they better than landraiders? no. are they better than vindicators? no. are they better than devastators? no. can the rest of your army kill horde effectively? quite probably.

i can see three being taken (i would never only take one) but only in very specific armys that are really lacking anti-horde.

One Landraider costs almost as much as 3 Thunderfire Cannons. Vindicators are not nearly as good at killing units in cover as the Thunderfire cannon. Thunderfire cannons are *so* good at killing Horde and light troops that the rest of your army can tool itself for killing armor. When you factor in that each TF is basically a free techmarine, it becomes a very, very cost effective Heavy choice.

I was thinking about taking 2, having 2 groups of 2 squads of infiltrators, and having them sit aroud shooting while the thunderfires drop down, and start shooting.

Obivously they're good vs horde, and they can slow down vehicles and heavy infantry. So with 2 very shooty groups landed on objectives, I was thinking that It would be a pretty formidable force, provided they could support eachother.

What's the techmarine like in CC? These thuderfire scare me. If I am facing them with my orks I will depend on snikrot or deff koptas (with their new improved 42" turn 1 assault range) to take them out.

Which is why you don't put them in the same place...?

thats fine, if its a terrain heavy table, if it lacks terrain where are they going to go?

You realize that the Thunderfire model occupies about the same space as an Attack Bike + 1 guy, right? If you've got terrain the size of a shoebox in your deployment area (easy with 12" faceoff, stupidly easy with quarters and halves) then you can spread them out enough to avoid dying to one big blast.

the thunderfire cannon was the space marine answer to the horde ork problem. In a lot of games the thunderfire cannon will die early or not cause a whole lot of damage, but its only 100 points so its not a huge points investment. In a game against a horde ork player it will likely kill more orks than anything else in your army.

JD21290 wrote:

Which is why you don't put them in the same place...?

thats fine, if its a terrain heavy table, if it lacks terrain where are they going to go?

I don't play on open fields with a single tree. And even if I am, i can probably sandwich it between a rhino and some marines.